What-No Crimp?

[ColColt]

This is sort of a two part question. First, I can't figure out why several manufacturers today don't crimp their cases. I recently bought a box of Federals 158 gr LSWCHP's in 38+P and they're not crimped. Neither are the Speer 135 gr JHP Short Barrel for 38 +P or the 125 gr Remington JHP for 357. I don't' know how they'll keep from having the bullet move under recoil but they know more than I do.(see pics)

Secondly, I had to buy some new 38/357 dies (RCBS) and it was noted that they use a "profile crimp". I've never heard that term before but assume a roll crimp is possible. Anyone care to explain the "profile crimp"? I haven't received the dies as yet so, maybe there's an explanation in the box.

 

[James57]

ColColt, the "profile" crimp is a modified roll crimp with a less severe angle which is supposed to allow a heavy crimp without the bulge that sometimes takes place on the case when regular roll crimp dies and a heavy crimp are used. I have one (Redding) I use in loading .41 magnum loads that have a heavy dose of slow burning powder that requires a heavy crimp to help build pressure. On the first part of your question, I have a box of factory loaded .38 Specail Speer 135 grain Gold Dot short barrel ammo sitting here in front of me and they are lightly roll crimped. I can't really speak to the other ammo in your post. James

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I can clearly see the crimp on the Speer round in your picture, but the other two don't show. Maybe the factory used a light taper crimp on those.

 

[cjw3]

A taper crimp is not very noticeable and also is not dependent on uniform case length as a roll crimp is. Anyone who has trimmed once fired factory cases will quickly see that they are not uniform in length.

Keeping the bullet in place in the presence of recoil is one reason, another is to keep bullet pull and powder combustion reasonably consistent from one round to the next.

 

[anomad]

The proof is in the pudding. if they chamber and load easily, don't move under recoil and give good numbers over your chrony? Who cares? I only crimp enough to do slightly more than remove the bell/flare from the case, in all but heavy magnum loads. Works for
me and saves wear and tear on the case mouth.

 

[Rule3]

All the rounds in your picture are "crimped" The first lead bullet is in the cannelure. The jackets on the next two bullets have the striation type crimp band that hold the bullet and keep it from moving. A taper type crimp holds it firm.

If you buy Gold Dots, or XTP type bullets they will have those striations or indentations which "hold" the bullet. If you load those type of bullets for revolvers the dies normally roll crimp. You just set the crimp enough to remove the flare and then add a little more to hold it tight.

Take any of the bullets and turn in upside down with the bullet on the bench. Push down on the case with the palm of you hand as hard as you can.I bet the bullet will not move. You can measure them first. It's a good way to test if your crimp is tight enough.

A lot of rifle bullets have the same thing.

 

[ColColt]

I can clearly see the crimp on the Speer round in your picture, but the other two don't show. Maybe the factory used a light taper crimp on those.

You certainly have better eyes than me as I see no crimp at all. If anything, a slight taper crimp like a 45 ACP crimp but certainly no roll crimp.

On the first part of your question, I have a box of factory loaded .38 Specail Speer 135 grain Gold Dot short barrel ammo sitting here in front of me and they are lightly roll crimped. I can't really speak to the other ammo in your post.

It took looking at it with a magnifying glass but I can see an ever so lightly applied roll crimp. The other two don't look as such to me.

The proof is in the pudding. if they chamber and load easily, don't move under recoil and give good numbers over your chrony? Who cares?

I wouldn't know if they move under recoil or not as yet since I just got the dies and haven't gotten the revolver yet... nor do I have a chronograph to check. Who cares? I do.

All the rounds in your picture are "crimped" The first lead bullet is in the cannelure. The jackets on the next two bullets have the striation type crimp band that hold the bullet and keep it from moving. A taper type crimp holds it firm.

I looked again at the Federal with the lead bullet and the Remington on the right under a magnifying glass and can see no crimp at all. It's like they were seated without a flare...just a strait wall case with bullet seated.

Long ago when I was reloading for the 44 Magnum and 45 Colt, I crimped into the Keith style bullet into the groove and you could see, sans the magnifying glass, a distinct roll crimp, nearly to the point of having a band showing around the case which in retrospect, was a bit too much but these cases don't' look anything like them.

I guess I was more concerned about the terminology used with current RCBS dies and the "profile crimp". I looked other places and they had the same dies with the same number and it wasn't called anything at all other than a "crimp seater die-roll or crimp" or "seater die for seating and crimping the bullet". All were the manufacturer No. 18212. The description depended on what website you were on.

 

[Rule3]

On the jacketed bullets there is not true cannelure or crimp groove. The bullet is held tight by the indented band around the bullet. More of a friction type crimp or hold between the bullet and the brass Did you try pushing on them like I suggested?

Here is a pic of the XTP 158 gr bullet. it is crimped on the band around the bullet. Call it what ever, but that's what holds it in there.

Hornady XTP Bullets 38 Caliber (357 Diameter) 158 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 100 - MidwayUSA

 

[ColColt]

On the jacketed bullets there is not true cannelure or crimp groove. The bullet is held tight by the indented band around the bullet. More of a friction type crimp or hold between the bullet and the brass Did you try pushing on them like I suggested?

Here is a pic of the XTP 158 gr bullet. it is crimped on the band around the bullet. Call it what ever, but that's what holds it in there.

Hornady XTP Bullets 38 Caliber (357 Diameter) 158 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 100 - MidwayUSA

I pushed down on all three and none moved. That ring around the bullet is what I call a "cannalure" and the neck of the brass should roll into it if it's a magnum round...in fact, it should roll into it with any round to prevent the bullet from backing out of the case or maybe the case pulling away from the bullet.

I have some 125 gr Hornady bullets that look much like the 158 gr and it too has the cannulure. That's it's purpose, to allow a roll crimp. Taper crimps, to me, are for autos. I don't see how a taper or friction crimp could keep a 1300-1400 fps 357 Magnum round from moving.

 

[Rule3]

Yes the ring is a type of cannelure but not a deep groove like a lead bullet.

You can't roll the brass into a bullet that has no place to roll it. I can't explain it, but that's just the way it is for jacketed bullets. If you can't push them hard enough to move them, they are crimped in there tight. Try a kinetic bullet hammer and see how hard it is to hammer one of those jacketed bullets out, They are not gonna move under the recoil of the revolver.
As you can see from any factory round Fed Hydra Shock, Speer GD, Hornady XTP, Rem Golden Sabers, that's how they all are.


Try some plated bullets. They have to "cannelure" at all.

 

[firearmsunlimited]

Sounds like the OP has all of his own answers to his orignal question!

 

[Rule3]

OK, here is a picture of some 44 Mags with 180 gr Nosler bullets.(they do not make it anymore) I am not giving the load data as they are barn burners. They will cut down small trees and should probably be shot in a Ruger but I have been using a 4" 629.

Sporting Handgun Revolver - Nosler - Bullets, Ammunition, Rifles, Brass, Reloading Data, Hunting, Shooting, Reloading, Load Data

As you can see in the picture, the "cannelure" not only has the little striations but if you put a micrometer on it there is also a little bit of a groove. That is all the is required to hold the bullet in place.

If you need more of a crimp groove, they sell this tool.

Corbin HCT-1 Hand Cannelure Tool

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I guess I was more concerned about the terminology used with current RCBS dies and the "profile crimp". I looked other places and they had the same dies with the same number and it wasn't called anything at all other than a "crimp seater die-roll or crimp" or "seater die for seating and crimping the bullet". All were the manufacturer No. 18212. The description depended on what website you were on.

That's an easy one to figure out, all you need to do is contact RCBS and ask them. I'm sure they will answer any questions you have. They have always answered my questions and given me more information than I expected!

As for the crimp on those factory rounds, I'm guessing the factory applied a taper crimp to them. I highly doubt they have no crimp at all because the chance of bullet pull is too great without it. That might also warrant a call or an email to the company.

 

[moxie]

That Rem. 125 SJHP on the right in the original post appears to have been deformed in some way. It looks like a reload that had been done with the wrong seater insert. And, the low proportion of the jacket to the lead doesn't look like standard Rem. either. The real Rem. bullets have more "teeth" in the cannelure. Looks like a counterfeit. Finally, it isn't seated deep enough. Too much cannelure showing. And, actually finally, there is noticeable crimp in the factory round. Never seen Rem. factory ammo that looked like that.

 

[HKSmith]

I checked my Speer and Remington jacketed bullet ammo and it appears to have no crimp, something I've noticed for many years. Some older ammo that I have with swaged lead bullets in .32 S&W, .38 S&W, and .38 SPL has a roll crimp that looks just like my reloads.

I remember reading years ago that factory jacketed bullet ammo has an adhesive sealant applied to the inside of the case that holds the bullet in place and seals out oil and moisture. That would explain the lack of a crimp if that's still being done.

 

[blujax01]

Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot, my own HP reloads. I see and feel roll crimps on all three.

 

[tdan]

<Secondly, I had to buy some new 38/357 dies (RCBS) and it was noted that they use a "profile crimp". I've never heard that term before but assume a roll crimp is possible. Anyone care to explain the "profile crimp"? I haven't received the dies as yet so, maybe there's an explanation in the box.>

I'm thinking Redding is the only manufacturer that uses the term profile crimp. That is Redding's version of a roll crimp, and a very good roll crimp die it is. Furthermore, that serrated ring you see on jacketed bullets is indeed a cannelure. It also serves as a baseline for overall cartridge length. Many times I have purchased a box of factory loads with a bullet I am interested in, just so I can chronograph it and verify accuracy. I will then get down to developing handloads using the factory COL as a baseline while trying different powder combinations to see if I can improve on that factory load in a specific gun. This is one of the more rewarding aspects of handloading for me.

 

[tdan]

<You can't roll the brass into a bullet that has no place to roll it. I can't explain it, but that's just the way it is for jacketed bullets.>

Really now!..........I assure you that when I load a Hornady 240gr. Hornady XTP over 23.5gr. of H-110, that cartridge is secured with a heavy roll crimp that does roll the edge of the case deep into that ring on the bullet that you seem to think is not a cannelure.

 

[Rule3]

<You can't roll the brass into a bullet that has no place to roll it. I can't explain it, but that's just the way it is for jacketed bullets.>

Really now!..........I assure you that when I load a Hornady 240gr. Hornady XTP over 23.5gr. of H-110, that cartridge is secured with a heavy roll crimp that does roll the edge of the case deep into that ring on the bullet that you seem to think is not a cannelure.

I am afraid you have me confused with the OP. Don't come in at the end of this ridiculous discussion and tell me how to crimp a fmj bullet with a cannelure. I was tying to explain to the OP in a way he might grasp the idea that the cannelure on the jacket bullet is not a deep as on a lead bullet. If you go back and actually read some more of the posts you will see exactly what was said and in fact the actual pictures I posted.

 

[ColColt]

That Rem. 125 SJHP on the right in the original post appears to have been deformed in some way. It looks like a reload that had been done with the wrong seater insert. And, the low proportion of the jacket to the lead doesn't look like standard Rem. either. The real Rem. bullets have more "teeth" in the cannelure. Looks like a counterfeit. Finally, it isn't seated deep enough. Too much cannelure showing. And, actually finally, there is noticeable crimp in the factory round. Never seen Rem. factory ammo that looked like that.

They came from a reputable online dealer...maybe Ammotogo or Midway. I can't recall which if either as I don't have the invoice handy. They looked odd to me as well-especially the bullet. I'm going to try them(along with others) out tomorrow so, we'll see.

The GDHP's I have(short barrel) does seem to roll in a bit more than the others. It could be as mentioned some sort of sealant that the others use. I'm still a bit perplexed about the Remington rounds and the slight deformed bullet. I noticed that as well but tried to overlook it.

OCD1-Yep, I now it's hard to roll crimp into a cannelure. When I was shooting 44 and 45 Colt I know I must have applied a bit too much crimp as I recall a band or belt around the case mouth. They didn't move though!

I loaded some 125 gr bullets tonight as I got the dies yesterday evening. I just adjusted them like I have all the others and the work the same way. I have a slight crimp on them now with no band but you can feel and see a slight turning into to the cannelure. I don't think they're going to move.