What parts are forged
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Here is a tub of forged frames
These will be machined into N-frame revolvers
These will be machined into N-frame revolvers
Here is a tub of forged frames
These will be machined into N-frame revolvers
Darn, not one of thoes laying so you can see where the side plate will be cut.
Kernel Crittenden
US Veteran
This is a picture of a board that hung on the wall a S&W in Springfield. Don't know if it's still there, since the gun it depicts is pretty old. Shows many of the major components as they would of progressed at each major step in the manufacturing process. I thought it was interesting, and due to it's age it's not super relevant to the OP's topic, but I've been waiting a long time for a thread to post it in...........
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BruceM
Member
I just have to ask. What did you think the alternative to a forging might be and even more importantly, why did you ask?
Bruce
rburg
Member
We also have neglected "MIM", the most evil concept ever. Call it plastic metal if you must.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
What is the exact process on the mim parts?
Casted 4140 steel, forged, machined, then hardened? Drop in part?
Casted 4140 steel, forged, machined, then hardened? Drop in part?
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I doubt there is any other method to produced a strong enough metal part to become a revolver cylinder than forging the appropriate material into round bar stock, then cutting to appropriate length, machining processes to final form and heat treating and finishing as appropriate. This is a good basic description:
How revolver is made - material, making, used, parts, components, procedure, industry, machine
PS I do not work in this field so I may be wrong. By the way, can you call the factory back and ask them about how cylinders are made? They gave you a good answer on the barrel and frame...
How revolver is made - material, making, used, parts, components, procedure, industry, machine
PS I do not work in this field so I may be wrong. By the way, can you call the factory back and ask them about how cylinders are made? They gave you a good answer on the barrel and frame...
Alk8944
US Veteran
At least before MIM the forged parts in a S&W revolver were barrel, yoke, frame, trigger, hammer and, I believe, the cylinder stop and bolt. The cylinders are made from round bar stock, and probably always have been. The lockwork recess in the frame is part of the forging process.
It isn't so much that forging is technologically superior to machining from solid stock as it is a far more cost effective method of fabrication. Even though all surfaces must still be machined, there is far less metal to remove from a forging that can be produced very close to finished dimensions.
It isn't so much that forging is technologically superior to machining from solid stock as it is a far more cost effective method of fabrication. Even though all surfaces must still be machined, there is far less metal to remove from a forging that can be produced very close to finished dimensions.
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Well, at least someone knows 
. But is round bar stock forged into that shape?
. But is round bar stock forged into that shape?
desmodue
Member
A forging will have superior mechanical properties to a casting, when the intended purpose is building a strong firearm.
That doesn't mean that forgings are the only way to have high strength steel parts.
Quality bar stock parts (ASTM A331 4140 chromium/molybdenum steel for example) that are properly heat treated can exceed forged steel mechanical properties.
Producing a high quality steel revolver is an expensive process. Drop forging frames and hammer forging barrels is cost effective due to the shapes. The frame is a flat part that is relatively simple to forge. The barrel can be hammer forged around a mandrel.
The cylinder is a different matter it has 5, 6, 7, or 8 chambers that are off center to the axis, forging this part is not an option. Starting with very good ASTM A331 steel and post heat treating will produce a part that is superior to a forging.
Think about it, when a .44 Magnum cartridge is ignited, what part takes the highest pressure load? The cylinder, and it isn't forged.
That doesn't mean that forgings are the only way to have high strength steel parts.
Quality bar stock parts (ASTM A331 4140 chromium/molybdenum steel for example) that are properly heat treated can exceed forged steel mechanical properties.
Producing a high quality steel revolver is an expensive process. Drop forging frames and hammer forging barrels is cost effective due to the shapes. The frame is a flat part that is relatively simple to forge. The barrel can be hammer forged around a mandrel.
The cylinder is a different matter it has 5, 6, 7, or 8 chambers that are off center to the axis, forging this part is not an option. Starting with very good ASTM A331 steel and post heat treating will produce a part that is superior to a forging.
Think about it, when a .44 Magnum cartridge is ignited, what part takes the highest pressure load? The cylinder, and it isn't forged.
BruceM
Member
Right!
That's exactly true-NOT.
Bruce
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Not a metallurgist here but with past experience with MIM parts.
My company began using MIM parts many years ago, and we got the same trash talk from some customers as we hear about S&W parts today. The proof was in the pudding when they realized that the parts not only did the job but had advantages in many ways. Our engineers had tested the parts seven ways from Sunday before the change was made and were convinced that the change was worthwhile. It proved to be the case after much field experience.
If MIM does not suit your fancy, just buy old models while the rest of us realize the advantages of new technology. I love the old blued guns, but the newer stainless ones are more user friendly. Some are still trying to look back at the blued guns as superior but I much prefer the stainless in wet conditions. Go with whatever floats your boat.
My company began using MIM parts many years ago, and we got the same trash talk from some customers as we hear about S&W parts today. The proof was in the pudding when they realized that the parts not only did the job but had advantages in many ways. Our engineers had tested the parts seven ways from Sunday before the change was made and were convinced that the change was worthwhile. It proved to be the case after much field experience.
If MIM does not suit your fancy, just buy old models while the rest of us realize the advantages of new technology. I love the old blued guns, but the newer stainless ones are more user friendly. Some are still trying to look back at the blued guns as superior but I much prefer the stainless in wet conditions. Go with whatever floats your boat.
raylan007
Member
Without such advents such as MIM parts you would be complaining that you couldn't afford a revolver made as some folks see it, old school. Life and technology change and your either your "On the Bus or Off the Bus", Ken Kesey. Would you stop buying late model cars if they weren't built in the same fashion as your "56" Chevy. I doubt it.
BruceM
Member
This MIM parts thing has actually taken on a life of it's own and a lot of folks have almost an irrational fear of a MIM part failing at the wrong time.
Very high quality MIM parts can be produced to extremely close tolerance and immensely intricate shapes with a wide variety of carbon and stainless steel alloys and a wide range of heat treatment specs. As this process evolves and gets even more refined, it's use in firearms applications will expand just as it has with investment casting. These same investment casting were said to be vastly inferior to forgings when they were originally used-something that has proven to be patently false with the passage of time.
My personal gripe with MIM parts isn't their utility but their aesthetic qualities. Smith and Wesson MIM hammers and triggers look like hell as compared to their CCH forged counterparts. Also, MIM parts used in conjunction with extremely close tolerance CNC machining has given some manufacturers, including Smith & Wesson, the notion that almost all hand fitting and most close manual inspection and QC can be eliminated. That has not proven to be the case in the eyes of their customers however. Continuing issues with canted revolver barrels, poorly fitted thumb safeties and poorly staked plunger tubes on 1911's continue to vex their product. I can see no good reason for this except that possibly their bottom line mandates a policy of "let service clean up after production". It's damaging their consumer satisfaction and perception.
Such is life today.
For the most part, people are irrationally fearful of all MIM parts and are just running scared. Although MIM parts in firearms have been around since at least 1983, the main reason for this fallout can be traced to a single 1911 manufacturer and that goes for the external extractor as used on 1911's also.
Bruce
Very high quality MIM parts can be produced to extremely close tolerance and immensely intricate shapes with a wide variety of carbon and stainless steel alloys and a wide range of heat treatment specs. As this process evolves and gets even more refined, it's use in firearms applications will expand just as it has with investment casting. These same investment casting were said to be vastly inferior to forgings when they were originally used-something that has proven to be patently false with the passage of time.
My personal gripe with MIM parts isn't their utility but their aesthetic qualities. Smith and Wesson MIM hammers and triggers look like hell as compared to their CCH forged counterparts. Also, MIM parts used in conjunction with extremely close tolerance CNC machining has given some manufacturers, including Smith & Wesson, the notion that almost all hand fitting and most close manual inspection and QC can be eliminated. That has not proven to be the case in the eyes of their customers however. Continuing issues with canted revolver barrels, poorly fitted thumb safeties and poorly staked plunger tubes on 1911's continue to vex their product. I can see no good reason for this except that possibly their bottom line mandates a policy of "let service clean up after production". It's damaging their consumer satisfaction and perception.
Such is life today.
For the most part, people are irrationally fearful of all MIM parts and are just running scared. Although MIM parts in firearms have been around since at least 1983, the main reason for this fallout can be traced to a single 1911 manufacturer and that goes for the external extractor as used on 1911's also.
Bruce
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If the cylinder is cut from bar stock, that is essentially a forged part then. The bar would have started life as a hot slug that gets pounded, rolled and drawn out to its final form. Stock normally comes in three options, cast, hot rolled and cold rolled. The cold rolled being the best.
Alk8944
US Veteran
Let's be accurate about this. First, initially all steel is cast. The molten steel from the furnace is poured into a mould, and when it "freezes" (simply becomes solid from cooling) is processed into dimensional stock by rolling. Alloy steels are hot rolled due to their relative strength requiring this. Typically cold rolled steels are simple Carbon steels which are often not heat-treatable, so-called "mild steel". Bar stock strictly is not forged, but rather rolled to shape, regardless of diameter. While rolling works the metal in very similar fashion to forging it is not the same process at all.
Stock for forging can be either cast or cut from rolled stock, usually referred to as a "slug". This slug, cut to the required dimension to fill the forging die when "struck" is then heated in a furnace and finished to required shape in the forging die, and excess then removed in a separate trimming operation to remove excess material. Subsequent heat-treatment of the forging can be done either after forging and before machining, or after machining operations depending on the required material properties.
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