What to do?

jinx

jinx

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A close friend that I see on a daily basis almost gave me a heart attack today. Had me come to his mother in law's house and look at a gun. The mother in law passed away about 2 weeks ago. I think she was in her 90's.
Up to the attic we go and there in an old footlocker is a MP 44 or maybe an MP 43.{ I think they are the same thing}. There is no magazine.
The father in law had fought the Germans in WWII and evidently he brought this machine gun back. No one knows the story as he passed some years ago. My buddy says he nor any of the family members had ever known of this gun.
I have to ask, Could WWII vets bring home a machine gun as a war trophy? There is no paper work at all concerning this gun, He has looked in every nook and cranny.
So I have to assume this is illegal as h***. Do I tell him to take a torch to it and then throw it in the river? Do I tell him to take it to the local Police or Sheriff?
It is a shame as I know it is very valuable not to mention historically important. Is there anything he can do to get it "legal"? Possibly a museum, or some one that collects Class III firearms help him out.

Any thoughts or ideas from you folks would be appreciated.
 
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Got to be someone near you that is legal for that. Hate to see it go to scrap.
 
I could be wrong, but if it wasn't registered with the BATF as a bring back during the amnesty period back in about 1968 I think, it's not legal to possess.
 
Unless grampa registered it in the amnesty ('68)there is no way to make it legal.If he did register it,then your friend would need to fill out a few forms.I have no doubt there are a number of bring backs that have been quietly passed along.
 
Are you sure it is not deactivated? My Dad, back in the '50s, bought a Schmeisser from a friend of his. It had been rendered inoperable, and he had the papers, I think from the IRS, that said it was legal because of that. Dad was a machinist, and got it working. He told me he would load it up, turn on the radio and TV real loud, and shoot it in my Grandparents basement.:eek:
Wish I coulda been there.:cool:

Check it out. If it is inoperable, it is probably legal. If not, I'll bet if you called the local PD and had them come out there would be no problem. He didn't know it was there, and the owner is deceased.

'Course, I'm not a lawyer, so don't take that as legal advice.:D
Jim
 
If it were mine....

I'd make it inoperable as a fully auto weapon and enjoy having it around. Even if he doesn't want it himself, just saying, "I've got an illegal gun here" will be a sure way that it gets destroyed. I wonder if there is a way to research whether it was 'amnestied' or not. There are a lot of ways to go about it and it would be best that it be preserved however he does it.

I'm no lawyer, but 'intent' is written into the gun laws in SC a lot. If it isn't your intent to own or make an illegal weapon, like somebody stashes it under your house, you aren't liable.
 
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In my original post I mentioned that no trace of paperwork has been found.That doesn't mean he did not register the gun, the family just can't find anything connected to it. May be any paper work was lost over the years. If the man had registered the gun in the amnesty period, would there be a government record that could be accessed? If that info is available to John Q Public, can replacement paperwork be obtained?
Thanks for your opinions
 
jinx said:
In my original post I mentioned that no trace of paperwork has been found.That doesn't mean he did not register the gun, the family just can't find anything connected to it. May be any paper work was lost over the years. If the man had registered the gun in the amnesty period, would there be a government record that could be accessed? If that info is available to John Q Public, can replacement paperwork be obtained?
Thanks for your opinions
Click to expand...

The problem I see with inquiring about the paperwork is that it puts you on the BATF radar as having such a firearm:eek:. I don't know how one would anonymously find out if said paperwork exists.
 
I agree with the above post. This is a delicate situation.
 
I'd make it inoperable as a fully auto weapon and enjoy having it around.
Click to expand...

As for dewatting it yourself, the BATF have posted guidelines as to just what needs to be done. (i.e. cutting off the firing pin or welding the barrel shut isn't enough.)

However I seem to remember that even Dewats need paperwork after the '68 amnesty...
 
had the same problem...

A gunsmith friend passed away of dementia, and his widow asked me to examine and value about a dozen long arms and several pistols for possible disposal. Along with the tasty stuff (one was an engraved and inlayed custom-stocked Model 70) was a .30 carbine with a 4-digit serial number.

I inventoried it all and lugged it down to an auction house for their opinion. Their firearms guy went thru the pile and when he came to the carbine, he simply turned to me and said, "get this out of my building RIGHT NOW". I returned from my car for an explanation 10 minutes later. It seems that the carbine was marked "US Carbine, Cal .30 M2" on the breech ring. By BATF definition, all M2's are "machine guns", and he would be subject to fine, confiscation and imprisonment if the "wrong" guys saw it in his shop.

We wound up contacting the BATF and "abandoning to the government" the carbine. This generated a receipt for proof of proper disposal.

My ATF friends have since told me that there is no way to "make legal" anything that didn't get into that last amnesty. Making it non-functional simply isn't enough.
 
If you contact local authorities the gun will be confiscated and destroyed for sure. They either don't know or likely don't care to do anything more with it.

I'd contact BATF&E and explain the situation to them. They can at least check to see if it was ever registered. Odds are it will end up being destroyed anyway. But there is the slim chance that it could end up in a museum somewhere if your friend tells them that's what he wants.

Either way, your friend needs to do something with it soon. He does not want to be found with it.
 
The only thing "machine gun" about it is the receiver (might be the trigger pack too like in a HK. I'm not versed on MPs you would have to look that up). Everything else is just parts.

I have "heard" (do some research) that if you destroy the receiver (whatever part us the machine gun) you still have a very pricy parts kit worth some $$$$.

By "destroy" I mean destroy. Torch welder and into many pieces
 
I'm confused here. If someone has a class III weapons permit, which I assume you don't but if you did, are you not allowed own a war relic like this?
 
I would attempt to find out all legality's and tell him what they are and what penalty's could be. I wouldn't try to influence him one way or the other beyond that.
 
Hello, I would suggest that you contact an attorney. As you had many questions, I would say talk to someone that can give you the best answer. When they are on your side, they can be friendly, effective, and helpful. I would look for someone that handles this area of the law, and set up an appointment. Bring any papers, serial numbers, identifying marks, etc., with you and ask him/her your question.

You wanted to obey the law, you're not sure what to do, and you would rather not destroy something so rare and valuable. The person that may have committed an offense is unavailable for prosecution. This "artifact" could give some financial gain to the family of the WW2 veteran that fought the Nazis to defend our country. The family could possibly even allow the attorney to accept this into "custodial custody".

They could contact a museum, collector, or auction house, so that it may be transferred if that should be desired. A search could be conducted regarding the proper license, either the former owner, or some family member receiving one to retain the weapon. This is a valuable "artifact", please don't destroy it.

I did a search and found a "parts kit" with a receiver that looked like a bandsaw had cut it in two for $2800, it had most of it's parts. An old post (2004) with a semi auto converted rifle had it valued at 10-12k, so counting for inflation and other factors, 20-25k? depending on condition.
 
3dots said:
I'm confused here. If someone has a class III weapons permit, which I assume you don't but if you did, are you not allowed own a war relic like this?
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as a "class III weapons permit". Each and every gun is registered and taxed. If you own one gun, you paid 200 dollars tax. If you own ten guns, you paid 2000 dollars tax. But if you want to get another gun, there is another 200 dollar tax.

There are, basically, two types of guns. Transferrable, which means that anybody that can legally own a gun can own this (providing his state has no problem with it), and nontransferrable. Nontransferrable guns can only be owned by dealers, police departments, and like that.

But whether it is transferrable or nontransferrable, it HAS TO BE registered. If it is not registered, it is contraband. And with a machine gun, if it is not registered, there is no way to register it.

Being caught with an unregistered NFA item is worth 10 years in the Federal lockup and a quarter-million dollar fine ($250,000.00). You don't want that.

He has, as I see it, three choices.

Completely disassemble the gun and torch-cut the receiver into at least four pieces, and dispose of the pieces. He now has a "parts kit" for an MP44, which is probably worth some coin.

Get in touch with the ATF and tell them that he has just found the gun in a deceased relatives effects, and he is not sure whether it is registered or not. They will check the records. If it IS registered, then fine. He can inherit it on a Form 5. If it is NOT registered, then ATF will confiscate it as contraband. Either way he should not get in trouble.

Don't tell anyone, keep it and hope he does not get caught. I think the "ten years and 250000 dollars" would make me decide NOT to take this choice.


Also, as someone else said, "once a machine gun, always a machine gun". There is no way to make that gun a legal semi-auto.
 
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Thanks to all for your advice. I will pass this on and let the family make a decision.
 
Hi:
In reference to your question, "Could WWII Vets bring back Machine Guns As War Trophies" ?
I was a small lad during and after WWII. My Father's Friends did and wherether it was legal or not ??
I remember not only rifles, pistols, knifes, and swords but SMGs, MGs, grenades, artillery shells, helmets, etc.
My first Agency (1962) had a German MP-38 9mm that a WWII Vet had given to the Agency. He also brought back a huge German Flag and a duffel bag full of Lugers.
The last time I looked in one of Dad's Friend's foot locker there was still a live Jap Hand Grenade !
Two years ago one of my Officers during a traffic stop found a Jap Nambu MG in the trunk of the stopped car. The two young ladies had found the MG in their Grandfather's attic and was taking it to trade for drugs.
 
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Whatever you do, don't look on Gunbroker for magazines and ammo...:cool:
 
Being a member -- I'd contact the NRA (by phone) and see if they can help you with any info.
 
Here is a mountain of info on these guns
Claus Espeholt's G43 - MP44 Information

My suggestion. Find out if it was amnesty registered. If not, disassemble the gun, surrender the receiver, purchase a dummy receiver, and assemble as a "non-gun". It will still be worth a substantial amount, and will be perfectly legal. Or you could just sell the remaining parts for a substantial amount.

You can purchase a dummy receiver for $200 at
German WWIIequipment3

There are some possible legal dispositions for intact but unregistered machine guns. See
https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-3.pdf and
https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
 
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have an attorney do the sleuthing as a buffer between them and the authorities.
 
Again, many thanks to all for the information.
 
For anyone in a similar position, there are advantages to retaining an attorney. Doing so will require some research as it has to be a person who is interested in or willing to learn about the legal issues, and none of this will be cheap. It will, however, be a lot cheaper than cleaning up an error.

The main advantage is that the attorney cannot be compelled under any likely scenario to ID the client. They can do the research and keep the client off the radar screen, no matter how it comes out. Even making arrangements to surrender such a find might go badly, and having the cut-out who cannot disclose the source is a lot better than driving over to the federal building with it in your trunk and asking an agent to come get it. :eek:

I suspect that this is a great big sack of poop that has be cleaned up as well as possible, using whatever processes might be available under federal and state law to address such a scenario. I do not practice in such an area, and could no more advise on this than I could on entertainment law, so this is not "legal advice", putting aside I am not admitted in your state. It's practical advice. A few hundred bucks to get guidance on how to deal with this without making the HUGE mess it could be is a lot better than $250 - $400/hour to litigate. My best guess, and it is only that, is that there is no way to make this legal. That means that finding a decent way to turn it in for ATF to deal with is the only plan left. There generally is no incentive to mess with people who are in your friend's position, but I would take the reasonable and prudent coward's path anyway.
 
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