What to shoot?
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Skeetr57
Member
Why do you want to shoot black powder? The gun will be perfectly safe with standard velocity .38 Special ammo, either 158 gr RN or 148 gr Wad cutter.
Welcome to the Forum. Black powder is loaded by volume and any cartridge loading must NOT contain any air space. When loading a black powder round, you need to determine how far the bullet you intend to use will be seated in the case. Once that measurement is determined, subtract 1/16" and that dimension is the line in which to fill the case with black powder. BP should be slightly compressed and the 1/16" will accomplish that. Once you do this, you can measure the volume of powder in the case and repeat the loading by a powder volume measure.
Not sure why you want to do this, but I would use 3F and a 158 grain lead bullet.
Not sure why you want to do this, but I would use 3F and a 158 grain lead bullet.
It is not correct. The .38 Special cartridge was a smokeless round from the very beginning.
Smokeless powder was introduced somewhere around 1896 and by 1900 was overtaking black powder. You should be able to find many reloading recipes on the various powder websites. You could also use standard commercial ammo out there as well, IF your revolver is in good working order.
Some popular target loads can be had with lead wadcutter bullets and fast burning shotgun powders like Clays, Bullseye, Unique, etc.
Some popular target loads can be had with lead wadcutter bullets and fast burning shotgun powders like Clays, Bullseye, Unique, etc.
Arik
Member
You're perfectly fine with off the shelf standard velocity ammo
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According to my gunsmith, my revolver had rarely, if ever shot. If not for the state of the nickel plating, I probably would not shoot it at all. I also read that the cylinders were not hardened during this period. Smith & Wesson states that my revolver was shipped from the factory on March 12, 1902.
Jim Watson
Member
The original load for the .38 Special has been given as 21.5 gr of black and a 158 grain lead roundnose. This made it way more special than the .38 Government (Long Colt) which was considered inadequate in the Philippines with 18 gr of black and a 150 gr bullet.
But by 1939 the remaining black powder load (of English manufacture) for .38 Special was down to 18 gr, probably due to thicker brass.
But by 1939 the remaining black powder load (of English manufacture) for .38 Special was down to 18 gr, probably due to thicker brass.
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Any major factory 158 gr lead or 148 gr wadcutter load will be well under pressure limits for even your 1899.
If yours was rarely shot but the nickel finish is damaged (flaked, peeling, pitted, etc.), that is the result of black powder fouling that was not cleaned promptly - another plus for modern .38 Special loads to be used.
If yours was rarely shot but the nickel finish is damaged (flaked, peeling, pitted, etc.), that is the result of black powder fouling that was not cleaned promptly - another plus for modern .38 Special loads to be used.
Skeetr57
Member
Most of the rust and pitting damage to old guns is more likely to be from the corrosive chlorate primers than to the black powder itself. The same cleaning needed for black powder, water, also removed the chlorate residue. Use of chlorate primes with smokeless power was actually worse, because the black powder residue absorbed the chlorate reside and was blown out by subsequent shots and by brushing. Smaller calibers were affected worse than larger calibers, because the amount of priming was in greater proportion than for the larger calibers.
Jim, I do not believe that the 38 Special was ever commercially loaded in black powder. If anyone has ever found a box of BP 38 Special please post.
You should not weigh BP for the loading you list. First, you must know how far the bullet will be seated and not all 158 grain bullet seat at the same level. You also do not know the grain size used for someone's load. Also, different vintage and different manufacturer's brass will have different cavity volumes. If you leave air under the bullet, it creates a potentially dangerous situation. You MUST lightly compress BP, but yes you can compress it too far, so make sure you know how high the powder column needs to be and measure that amount of BP by volume for the rest of your cases as noted above.
I have had good results with 3.2 gr. 231 behind a Speer HBWC in this Jan. 1901 shipped 38 M&P 1st Model, (Model of 1899).
Alk8944
US Veteran
glowe and Jack,
You are both wrong about early .38 Spl. loadings!
Cited from "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" by Charles R. Suydam, (C) 1977, pp. 172-173: "the .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was first made by UMC early in 1899; cartridges were sent to Smith & Wesson for trial in May of that year. Original loads were 18.0 grains of black powder, ...... In June, 1899, the powder charge was increased to 21.5 grains:... The first smokeless loadings were made in September, 1899,....."
So, you see, the earliest .38 Special loadings were with black powder only from May to September 1899. Both black powder and smokeless loadings were produced from 1899 to, as I recall, sometime in the 1920s or '30s before finally being discontinued. Smokeless loadings were not produced "from the very beginning", and glowe's remark "I do not believe that the 38 Special was ever commercially loaded in black powder.", is equally incorrect. The cartridge was exclusively a black powder load from May to September, 1899.
The cited book is an excellent reference for anyone really interested in U.S. cartridge development. One copy of the first edition is available on E-bay if anyone is interested, only $59.95 BIN.
You are both wrong about early .38 Spl. loadings!
Cited from "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" by Charles R. Suydam, (C) 1977, pp. 172-173: "the .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was first made by UMC early in 1899; cartridges were sent to Smith & Wesson for trial in May of that year. Original loads were 18.0 grains of black powder, ...... In June, 1899, the powder charge was increased to 21.5 grains:... The first smokeless loadings were made in September, 1899,....."
So, you see, the earliest .38 Special loadings were with black powder only from May to September 1899. Both black powder and smokeless loadings were produced from 1899 to, as I recall, sometime in the 1920s or '30s before finally being discontinued. Smokeless loadings were not produced "from the very beginning", and glowe's remark "I do not believe that the 38 Special was ever commercially loaded in black powder.", is equally incorrect. The cartridge was exclusively a black powder load from May to September, 1899.
The cited book is an excellent reference for anyone really interested in U.S. cartridge development. One copy of the first edition is available on E-bay if anyone is interested, only $59.95 BIN.
Thanks, Alk8944
You learn something every day. Or at least you should hope to!
You learn something every day. Or at least you should hope to!
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DWalt
Member
As stated above the .38 Special was originally designed as a black powder round (the longer case would hold more BP than the .38 Long Colt case), but smokeless loadings were very quickly adopted. Factory .38 Special BP loadings were still available until the mid-1930s. I have no idea why anyone would want to buy them that late.
Black powder is not a good choice if smokeless powder is available. It gunks up the gun in short order. Your M1899 will safely handle light loads of smokeless powder. Wadcutter target loads would be very good for use in it.
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Alk8944
US Veteran
Note that the post linked to in TripleLock's post perpetuates the myth that the .38 S&W Special was introduced in 1902! "Cartridges of the World"** also repeats this as well as at least one major re-loading manual, Speer** as I recall. Where this ever started I have no idea. Maybe that is the year Colt adopted the cartridge (as the .38 Colt Special)? Unfortunately Suydam makes no mention whatsoever about the Colt variant.
** Just shows re-loading manuals aren't the place to look for reliable/accurate historical information on cartridges!
** Just shows re-loading manuals aren't the place to look for reliable/accurate historical information on cartridges!
Back in the late '70s-early '80s, I found a box of semi-smokeless .32-20 cartridges at a gun show. I bought them with the intention of shooting them and reloading the brass. A friend, who also owns a .32-20, talked me out of shooting them and bought them from me. I'll have to ask if he still has them. I don't recall the brand.
Of course, the .32-20 was introduced in the 1880s as a black powder round. Just thought this was an interesting side note.
Of course, the .32-20 was introduced in the 1880s as a black powder round. Just thought this was an interesting side note.
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DWalt
Member
Yes, Speer #9 ( and possibly other editions) says that the .38 Special cartridge was introduced in 1902 along with the Model 1902 revolver.
