What to shoot?

[glowe]

Great information. As noted, there is lots of information out there that states 38 Special was designed as a smokeless round, but discussions like this put some facts on the table that clearly show black powder 38 Special rounds were out there. That is a great box of BP and the first one I have ever seen. Keep it clean and safe.

Interesting that Mike's study of barrel markings on the Model 1899 show that the first example of a 38 SPECIAL CTG was done around s/n 7500 and that would correlate with a 1900 ship date.

My only question about the text of the book Alk8944 referenced is why would the government send 38 Special ammunition to S&W if that was the company that invented the caliber?? I also wonder if he could have been confused and 38 Long Colt was what the government sent to S&W?? The reason I ask is that 18 grains of BP is about the amount that was used in the 38 LC round?? Probably more questions than answers, but one reference from Charles R. Suydam still leaves room for more research. Wonder if the government testing documents are out there, like the Army tests conducted on the 38 Safety in the 1890 trials?

I just remembered a bit of information is contained in Roy's book about the issue. It is reported that the factory sent the Army 1000 38 Hand Ejector revolvers chambered in 38 Long Colt (38 US Service Cartridge). This was done in 1899. That information supports the above comments that maybe the author was a little confused about the calibers?? If as stated, the Army or Navy sent ammunition to S&W, it would support the thought it was 38 US Service Cartridge and not 38 Special. That trial was in 1899 and it was already known that problems existed with this ammo not being powerful enough for the military. This is the very reason why the 38 Special could have been invented around 1900, as evidenced by the fact that more BP could be loaded in the longer cases.

 

[Davidrr]

Thanks for all the very interesting information. I want to shoot black powder because of the era into which this revolver fits. I have been a black powder shooter for over 40 years, mostly flintlocks. I have been shooting black powder cartridges I have loaded in my buffalo rifle (.45-70), so I am familiar with how it is done. Besides, BP is just so much more fun!

 

[DWalt]

The 1890 Army trials document states the following:

.38 S&W: 14.125 gr Black Powder, 146.3 grain bullet
10 shot avg. velocity 635 ft/sec (25') 5"

.38 LC: 17.85 grains Black Powder 150 grain bullet
10 shot average velocity 723 ft/sec (25') 6"

 

[DWalt]

" I want to shoot black powder because of the era into which this revolver fits."

That is not actually correct. While black powder cartridge loadings were available and used well into the early 20th Century, UMC offered a fairly full line of smokeless powder handgun cartridges starting in 1894. Smokeless powder was being manufactured by duPont in 1892-93, and there was some use of European-manufactured smokeless powder in the USA even earlier. One can argue that the smokeless powder era began well before the Model of 1899 revolver was first marketed.

 

[NewDeparture]

JMHO. I don´t see anything wrong in using BP as long as you know how to properly load your rounds with it (and how to clean the revolver after using it).

Having said that, I tend to believe that one can almost always find a safe smokeless load for a good quality solid frame revolver.

I don´t think the same about top break frames, in which I only use BP; seeing a couple of frame latches giving up under what was supposed to be a "light smokeless load" convinced me of not taking that chance with mine.

As a side note: measuring BP by volume is the most common practice; however it can be measured by weight, and it should be measured by weight if you are looking for accuracy.


NewDeparture

 

[NewDeparture]

Thanks for all the very interesting information. I want to shoot black powder because of the era into which this revolver fits. I have been a black powder shooter for over 40 years, mostly flintlocks. I have been shooting black powder cartridges I have loaded in my buffalo rifle (.45-70), so I am familiar with how it is done. Besides, BP is just so much more fun!

Sorry, I didn´t see this post. BP is a lot of fun indeed. I would hesitate to use BP in a pristine gun just for fear of not cleaning it properly after shooting but developing BP loads for any other shooter-grade revolver is a very interesting process.

 

[TripleLock]

My only question about the text of the book Alk8944 referenced is why would the government send 38 Special ammunition to S&W if that was the company that invented the caliber??

It was not the government that sent cartridges to Smith & Wesson, but - as stated in Alk8944's post - U.M.C. (Union Metallic Cartridge Co., for those who don't know). Yes, the cartridge was invented by Smith & Wesson, but they had no ammunition production facilities - you don't see ammunition boxes marked "Manufactured by Smith & Wesson".

Smith & Wesson built the revolvers and created the .38 Special cartridge, but it was U.M.C. that actually manufactured the first ammunition. A situation not unlike the development of the .357 Magnum in the 1930s and the .44 Magnum in the 1950s - S&W built the revolvers, Remington (interestingly, a descendant of the U.M.C.Co.) produced the first ammunition.

Jim