What's an acceptable group from a rifle?

[2000Z-71]

Just wondering what members consider an acceptable 3 round group from a rifle when handloading? While I've been handloading for over 15 years, I've recently started getting into reloading for my hunting rifles.

So far I've been loading for .25-06, .270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, and .375 H&H. I've been able to get my groups all less than 1" (even down to 3/8" with the .25-06) in all rifles except for the .375. The first trial with H4198 was less than impressive. My loads with RL-15 are showing more promise at about 2". Loading has been done with Hornady 300gr. BTSP's. I'll be trying the next batch with RL-15 and Branes 300 gr. Triple Shock X bullets.

I keep telling myself that it is not a benchrest rifle and MOA performance should not be expected. I'm also keep telling myself it beets the crap out of me at the bench, rattles my teeth and I'm probably not executing the most precise trigger pull in anticipation of recoil. I'm also thinking 2" groups are also good enough for moment of buffalo. With Federal factory laods in 300gr. I was also getting close to 2" groups.

Just wondering what others consider to be acceptable accuracy from their hunting rifles when handloading.

 

[2000Z-71]

Just wondering what members consider an acceptable 3 round group from a rifle when handloading? While I've been handloading for over 15 years, I've recently started getting into reloading for my hunting rifles.

So far I've been loading for .25-06, .270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, and .375 H&H. I've been able to get my groups all less than 1" (even down to 3/8" with the .25-06) in all rifles except for the .375. The first trial with H4198 was less than impressive. My loads with RL-15 are showing more promise at about 2". Loading has been done with Hornady 300gr. BTSP's. I'll be trying the next batch with RL-15 and Branes 300 gr. Triple Shock X bullets.

I keep telling myself that it is not a benchrest rifle and MOA performance should not be expected. I'm also keep telling myself it beets the crap out of me at the bench, rattles my teeth and I'm probably not executing the most precise trigger pull in anticipation of recoil. I'm also thinking 2" groups are also good enough for moment of buffalo. With Federal factory laods in 300gr. I was also getting close to 2" groups.

Just wondering what others consider to be acceptable accuracy from their hunting rifles when handloading.

 

[Paul5388]

Hunting rifles really don't need more than MOA. I'm usually happy if I can shoot 1 1/2" or less at 100 yards. That gets more true as each year passes.

BTW, off of a bench, it may be a good idea to use a PAST type slip on recoil pad that fits on you, not the gun. It'll also help if you get the gun up some, so you are sitting up straighter. That let's the recoil rock you back instead of absorbing all of it with your shoulder.

 

[NFrameFred]

First, since you bring up the recoil issue on the .375, I'd do an honest assesment and try to determine if the larger group was me or the gun.

If you truly feel like you are shooting that rifle as well as the others, then I would have to observe that I have run across certain rifles that, for whatever reason, like one particular bullet/load combination to the exclusion of all others for some strange reason. Maybe the barrel was made first thing on a Monday, who knows ? Could be that due to being a hard kicking gun it is moving around a little in the stock and could benefit from a little glass bedding. I had a model 70 one time that was an atrocious shooter until I glass-bedded it and finally hit on the right combination after 21 hand load experiments. By the time I got it to shoot like I felt it should I no longer wanted the gun and traded it off, bequeathing the wealth of research information to the new owner who couldn't be happier with the rifle.

2" groups at 100 yards from a .375 are respectable by most standards. Gun magazine articles tend to lead us to believe that all our rifles should shoot sub MOA groups off the bench but even though most factory guns will shoot better than most of us can shoot them, my feeling is a false standard has been established by such writing.

A rifle, especially a big bore, that will shoot like that is truly a joy and I tip my hat to the man who can consistently ignore the teeth rattling jar that accompanys the trigger break and wring that kind of accuracy out of it. But that is more the exception than the rule and your observation of "minute of buffalo" is apropo. Unless you plan on some 300 yard shots on actual game, I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[pownal55]

1.5" seems to be the industry standard at 100yds for big game rifles. i am not satisfied unless i get under 1" with my small to medium bores. that 375 with those groups would be good enough for me. many rifles do not give their best performance until the barrel is fully broken in, 150 rnds or more. a rest like the "caldwell lead sled" might shrink those 375 groups down a bit.

 

[lafayne]

I agree with the 1.5 inch as an acceptable group. I have some rifles that will do better with good loads - some much better. I also use the PAST recoil shield on my shoulder. I pillar bed almost all of my rifles with steel filled epoxy and install internal steel crossbolts. I also bed the floor plate and free float the barrel to within about 2 inches of the receiver. It is quite an involved process, but they do maintain consistency.

 

[Noah Zark]

IMO and experience, anything less than 2 MOA (~2" at 100 yds) in a .375 is acceptable, and 1.5 MOA is outstanding. Ballistically, in general .375 projectiles cannot perform as well as .250 - .270 projectiles, and thus it is much easier to achieve MOA and sub-MOA results with the smaller caliber rifles. The closer the bullets get to being "flying ashtrays" the worse the ballistic performance.

I'd be pleased to own ANY .375 that is a 1.5 MOA shooter. My Winchester 1894BB in 375 Winchester is 2.00 to 2.25 MOA depending on my performance, and I'm tickled to have it do that well.

Noah

 

[jgh4445]

I like to try for sub MOA in all my rifles. Biggest bore I have is 30.06 so I don't have the recoil problem of that .375. My 25-06 is the most finicky I've ever loaded for. Still trying for that sub MOA group without a flier messing things up.

 

[OKFC05]

We've turned from a nation of hunters to shooters obsessed with equipment.

Back in the early 1950's (before I was old enough to hunt deer), somebody in the family bought a Jap army surplus rifle for $12 from JC Penny. It would not shoot tighter than 4" at 100yd if you begged it.
However, it was used for decades by everybody and their cousins to kill who knows how many dozens of deer. I doubt that any was shot at over 150yds, and most under 75yds.

 

[NFrameFred]

My thoughts, too, OKFCO5.

A target shooter told me one time that "if I hold "X" and break the trigger when I'm on it, I don't want a 10 or a 9." Fair enough, I can appreciate the desire for all the inherent accuracy I can get. But to be practical, how many of us in actual hunting situations can really take advantage of MOA accuracy under field conditions ?

 

[pownal55]

most rifle nuts will admit that it's more of an obsession than a matter of being practical. in search of the ever illusive one hole group.

 

[jgh4445]

What pownal55 said. It can be an obsession. For me its just something to do when deer season ends and I start to shoot varmints. If you have a rifle that will shoot fist sized groups at 100 yds, and you can consistently do it, your accurate enough to deer hunt I reckon.

 

[n4zov]

"We've turned from a nation of hunters to shooters obsessed with equipment."

That is a very interesting and accurate observation. No only are we no longer hunters, but by and large, we are no longer marksmen. Becoming a good shot is too hard and takes too long! Most shooters are more interested buying and talking about equipment than in learning to shoot well.

My goal with centerfire rifles is to shoot five-shot groups of 1 inch or less at 100 yards. However that goal is tempered with the realization that some rifles cannot achieve that standard, but are adequately accurate for hunting. Anything shooting groups larger than 1.5 inches is a disappointment and will not be in my gun safe for very long. I never shoot three-shot groups. As Colonel Townsend Whelen stated so well, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."

 

[Wayne M]

If your 375 is the H&H chambering it should easily be capable of MOA. Try the big Sierra in it and get it about 0.025 off the lands if there's room in the magazine. IMR 4350 always gave me the best results behind this bullet in an old Remington Safari grade.

 

[Frank237]

Originally posted by Noah Zark:
IMO and experience, anything less than 2 MOA (~2" at 100 yds) in a .375 is acceptable, and 1.5 MOA is outstanding. Ballistically, in general .375 projectiles cannot perform as well as .250 - .270 projectiles, and thus it is much easier to achieve MOA and sub-MOA results with the smaller caliber rifles. The closer the bullets get to being "flying ashtrays" the worse the ballistic performance.

I'd be pleased to own ANY .375 that is a 1.5 MOA shooter. My Winchester 1894BB in 375 Winchester is 2.00 to 2.25 MOA depending on my performance, and I'm tickled to have it do that well.

Noah

#1 you can not compare an 1894 to a modern bolt gun. Any bolt gun, with a decent barrel, properly bedded , with good optics, and good bullets should shoot 1" no matter the caliber. Many will do far better.

I've owned several .375 H&H's and all of them shot very well. A few capable of 3/4" or less at 100 yds day in , day out.

As the bore size goes UP accuracy does not go down. With that thinking the .50 BMG's should not shoot as well as they do.

FN in MT

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Any hunting rifle that approaches 1 MOA would make me happy. Remember, that just over 5" @ 500 yards, more than adequate for taking most game animals, even a small body deer. Actually, any hunting rifle that will do 1.5 MOA is a good meat getter.

 

[Paul5388]

I never shoot three-shot groups.

I really don't see any reason for a hunting rifle to need more than 3 shots for group. If you can't hit it in 3 shots, I have my doubts you'll do it in 5 shots. These new short fat cartridges won't even hold 5 shots in the magazine.

The .375 usually isn't considered to be a varmint caliber, so it isn't like someone is going to heat the barrel up from shooting it so much, like 5 rounds.

 

[Noah Zark]

Originally posted by Frank237:

#1 you can not compare an 1894 to a modern bolt gun. Any bolt gun, with a decent barrel, properly bedded , with good optics, and good bullets should shoot 1" no matter the caliber. Many will do far better.

I agree completely with your atatement that I bolded above, Frank. However, without the qualifiers (decent barrel, properly bedded, with good optics, and good bullets) I can easily compare the effective accuracy of a 1980s Winchester 1894 with that of an off the shelf boltgun with open sights in a similar caliber (bore diameter). That's way more of and apples and apples comparison, and that's what I meant. My background is not heavily vested in bedded, scoped rifles. I'm an open-sight kind of guy, and have been for the almost 50 years I've been shooting. Fortunately, I still have the eyes for it. For example, just last weekend I was busting claybirds lying on the 200 yd berm using a 308-barreled M1 Garand. Where I've hunted (PA and WV woods) scopes were considered a frivolity by the males in the tightwad family in which I was raised.

As the bore size goes UP accuracy does not go down. With that thinking the .50 BMG's should not shoot as well as they do.

Didn't say it did, and didn't mean to imply it did. However, ballisiic performance and efficiency IS adversely affected by increase in caliber and given the styles of bullet that are typical of the larger calibers; as n example I'm thinking of .400-.460 soft points. The .50 BMG is somewhat the exception, given its semi-boattail spitzer configuration.

Noah

 

[Paul5388]

Try shooting that .50 BMG without the recoil system and see how accurate it is. Chances are, your accuracy will go down the tubes with every increase in recoil, especially in the hard kickers.

I can shoot 1" 100 yard groups with a .45-70, but it isn't at .458 Win Mag weights and velocities.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Most of my rifleman freind's think I'm a nut job for my idea's on accuracy. My thought's are, if you can hit a six inch paper plate anywhere from 25 to 300 yards with the first shot out of a cold barrel, that's all you need!