What's up with the 9mm follower design change?
- Thread starter bxojr
- Start date
Bkreutz
US Veteran
I've been following this thread. I have not looked at the slide release where it contacts the follower in any of my 9mm M&P's but I've got 16 mags of various age and all 3 of the variants. I shoot quite a lot of practice each week (~1000 rounds) and have a match almost every weekend (sometimes 2). I've never had any of my pistols fail to slide lock when the mag is empty. I've never had the empty mags not fall out when the release button has been pressed. I don't know if they will fall out by themselves when they are partially loaded because dropping a mag with ammo in it would be a procedural penalty so when I do a tactical reload I pull the partial mag out of the well manually. It seems to me that you may be looking for problems that don't exist. What the pistol does when operating manually isn't what it's going to do when it's being used as it was intended. I wish I could find a bunch of the old followers (without the molded in "9"), I find them easier to load but other than that I have not noted any problems. Just my experience with the different mag followers.
I got a few in last week, went out and tried them after seeing this and do not have this problem. I put 2 or 3 rounds and fired to slide lock each time, did this about 10 times on 2 new mags and all worked fine. Even inserting an empty mag and racking the slide locks it back as it should. Here are a couple pics with side by side shot, mag on left purchased 11-11 and mag on right is the new one.
AR-Getsome
Member
I don't think some of you understand what the OP and the people who have the issue are saying. Look at these pics . Old vs. New. You can clearly see the new follower sliding past the slide lock. The magazine doesn't have that springy feeling when you release the magazine. The magazine drops out but does not drop like the older magazines due to the older follower having pressure on the slide lock, thus assisting in the proper ejection of the released mag. Those with the issue know what I'm talking about. Those with newer pistols might not have the problem. The issue also affects my 9c. My FS 9 test fire date is 6/4/2012 and my 9c is 11/06/2012
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I dont know what I was thinking...chalk it up to a brain fart. After rechecking the slide stop does infact over ride the follower. I even had a few times when the mag would not eject and I had to pull the mag out by hand. I could see this getting worse as the slide stop may wear the edge of the follower causing it to happen more often if not every time.
Now the question, is it the follower or tolerances in the mag itself. By my old eyes the followers look the same. Ill have to get the calipers out and take some measurements. Maybe swap followers from new and old mags to see if the problem follows the follower?
Now the question, is it the follower or tolerances in the mag itself. By my old eyes the followers look the same. Ill have to get the calipers out and take some measurements. Maybe swap followers from new and old mags to see if the problem follows the follower?
AR-Getsome
Member
At close inspection, to me the new follower is off spec. They look exactly as the OP pics. Does anyone have a brand new M&P pistol and an old one to compare the slide lock lever with the magazine issues? Maybe that will clarify if the new slide lock design accommodates the newer magazines.
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nogeek43
Member
Spoke with S&W today
I sent my two defective mags to S&W on Aug 22. I called them today to check on status. The CS rep said that they are waiting for a new shipment of mags and mine would be replaced. He did not offer an explanation of the problem. Sounds like they got a bad shipment of mags (out of spec) and will have to replace any that are sent back under warranty. I got my M&P in April, s/n HAC. I bought the range/ carry kit with 3 mags. The mag that was shipped in the pistol has no problem, but the two extra mags that came in the carry kit were the bad ones. So now I wait for a mag shipment, who knows when that will happen considering the recent shortage of 9mm mags.
I sent my two defective mags to S&W on Aug 22. I called them today to check on status. The CS rep said that they are waiting for a new shipment of mags and mine would be replaced. He did not offer an explanation of the problem. Sounds like they got a bad shipment of mags (out of spec) and will have to replace any that are sent back under warranty. I got my M&P in April, s/n HAC. I bought the range/ carry kit with 3 mags. The mag that was shipped in the pistol has no problem, but the two extra mags that came in the carry kit were the bad ones. So now I wait for a mag shipment, who knows when that will happen considering the recent shortage of 9mm mags.
I just looked at my mags received from Midway a few weeks ago.
The follower on the new ones look exactly like the ones that came with my 9 FS back in April. The build date was April 3, 2013 and the original mags look like the above rick119 purchased 11-11
The follower on the new ones look exactly like the ones that came with my 9 FS back in April. The build date was April 3, 2013 and the original mags look like the above rick119 purchased 11-11
I finally got a response from S&W. They're telling me to call their support number and get a replacement follower sent. I'll be interested to see whether the replacement follower is any different from the one I'm having trouble with...
nogeek43
Member
I hope you have better luck with the new followers. They sent me two new followers and they had the same problem with the slide lever tab.
Ofc.JL
Member
Hey Gentlemen, as a LE Armorer and avid fan and shooter of M&P's, I have been following this thread with great interest. 3 things I have observed about this problem. And it IS a problem that S&W needs to address. On a side note, I did speak to a S&W rep today about FS 45 mag springs(And come on S&W, 4 different FS 45 mag springs upgrades? Were the the engineers asleep during magazine shake out testing for the M&P 45 that day or what?) I spoke to him about the follower problem on new mags for 9's and he said "Hmm!". I'll pass the info on to the engineering Dept guys. And this rep was "Joe", been w/ S&W 34(?) years. I have talked to him in the past. Very nice Guy and knows his S&W's.
Back to the 3 things I observed on the FS 9 mags.
1. Yes, there is a minute difference in these new followers from the same style earlier followers. The slide lock shelf area on the new follower is just slightly more rounded off than ealier versions, causing the slide lock tab to miss the shelf, and slide down the side. Someone already spotted that and mentioned it. "AR getsome", I believe; Thank you, Sir. Good eye.
2. The mag springs on the newer mags seem to be weaker, ever so slightly. Could be any number of reasons why, but I will guess the heat treat is bad. FS 45's are having magazine spring failure even on the newest issue mags. The springs are collapsing between the double stack and single stack wire wrap. AFAIK, same manufacterer. My guess as to why? Magazine manufacture has sped up production to deliver product and quality control slipped. As in heat treat and plastic mold creation for the follower. End result...magazines are not working properly because every thing is out of specification.
3. There is a "fix", if you will. And, I will tell anyone right now it is not a proper or correct fix, but it will get you by until S&W fixes this.
What I will tell you is that you can dis-assemble the mag and VERY GENTLY(and I mean go slow and not much!), bias(Bend! I know, dirty word as it pertains to springs) the top 3-4 coils of the mag spring to push the follower up and to the left(viewed from the rear aspect), when the follower tops out in the mag tube. This will cause the follower to stay under the slide stop tab more often than not. Keep in mind that ANY bending of a spring can and does ruin said spring. With that said, the spring may sack out all by itself due to the earlier mentioned heat treat problem, so it wouldn't matter anyway.
I cannot condone anyone attempting this method because as I said ealier, it is not a correct or authorized fix. But it does and will work for a while until S&W gets a handle on this. Damn ProMag M&P mags may have to be a viable option for FS 9's for awhile. Go figure.
Best of luck, All.
Ofc.JL
Back to the 3 things I observed on the FS 9 mags.
1. Yes, there is a minute difference in these new followers from the same style earlier followers. The slide lock shelf area on the new follower is just slightly more rounded off than ealier versions, causing the slide lock tab to miss the shelf, and slide down the side. Someone already spotted that and mentioned it. "AR getsome", I believe; Thank you, Sir. Good eye.
2. The mag springs on the newer mags seem to be weaker, ever so slightly. Could be any number of reasons why, but I will guess the heat treat is bad. FS 45's are having magazine spring failure even on the newest issue mags. The springs are collapsing between the double stack and single stack wire wrap. AFAIK, same manufacterer. My guess as to why? Magazine manufacture has sped up production to deliver product and quality control slipped. As in heat treat and plastic mold creation for the follower. End result...magazines are not working properly because every thing is out of specification.
3. There is a "fix", if you will. And, I will tell anyone right now it is not a proper or correct fix, but it will get you by until S&W fixes this.
What I will tell you is that you can dis-assemble the mag and VERY GENTLY(and I mean go slow and not much!), bias(Bend! I know, dirty word as it pertains to springs) the top 3-4 coils of the mag spring to push the follower up and to the left(viewed from the rear aspect), when the follower tops out in the mag tube. This will cause the follower to stay under the slide stop tab more often than not. Keep in mind that ANY bending of a spring can and does ruin said spring. With that said, the spring may sack out all by itself due to the earlier mentioned heat treat problem, so it wouldn't matter anyway.
I cannot condone anyone attempting this method because as I said ealier, it is not a correct or authorized fix. But it does and will work for a while until S&W gets a handle on this. Damn ProMag M&P mags may have to be a viable option for FS 9's for awhile. Go figure.
Best of luck, All.
Ofc.JL
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This whole thread is depressing. It is obvious from the pictures what is happening. Why it is happening is beyond me. I mean, was the mold that makes the followers changed? If so, was it on purpose? If so, why in the name of Daniel Wesson would they screw with something that, at least so far, has not been a problem.
In a lot of ways, I am starting to be surprised that the M&P has not followed the SIGMA into obscurity. A quick re-cap: Initial problems with light strikes attributed to improperly cut chambers making the headspace wrong, then a re-design of the slide stop lever, then more persistent reports of light strikes, magazine drops, slide rails shearing off during sight replacement, sights too loose, sights too tight, white dots falling out every 5 minutes, safety alerts, LASD recalls the M&P 9 from the approved list, then back on, then they get a big contract from LASD (if they start having mag issues, the whole world will know and M&P will be killed dead for LE contracts), now a post about weak or improper heat treatment on magazine spring, and on top of it, the trigger return spring still has the tampon which, when lost, guarantees that the trigger return spring will shatter from vibration.
And on top of it, S&W does not tell anyone about anything, as far as issues, serial number ranges, etc. For me, that means there is virtually no way to determine what you are getting. If you get a bad one, it means trip after trip to the factory, and whether the pistol returns actually working or not has odds that seem almost worse than a trip to a gambling casino.
I have no idea what in the world kind of operation they are running up there, but if consumer confidence goes in the tank (and it might very well), then agencies will simply go to the "U" catalog number Glocks, which are made right here in the USA.
I am old enough to have lived through S&W's awful period in the 60s when you couldn't get a desirable model from them (Model 15, 19, 27 or 29 in revolvers) unless you also agreed to take J frames in 38 S&W and .32s and other stuff that was not popular. They were the only game in town and they knew it. Colt had been losing market share steadily and was in and out of near bankruptcy, buy outs, and all sorts of issues, and Ruger had not yet brought out its Security Six Series. Then the K frame Magnum issues happened, then the L frames, and the first thing out of the box was a massive recall for the "M" modification, and everyone had pretty much had it with S&W. People were hungry for a reliable new idea. And Glocks started to trickle in in 81 or 82, and they had set up shop here in 85, and those who didn't laugh or make fun of them were rejoicing when they got the bad press for being supposedly invisible to x-ray, when over 80% of the gun was steel and the polymer frame itself was still visible on x-ray. And then S&W was overtaken and has been playing catch up ever since.
They better get their act together or they are going to wind up with a ruined reputation for their top-of-the-line "premium" duty pistol. And, like the SIGMA, there will be no going back.
Sorry, but S&W has the largest factory around as far as I know, and they brag about more CNC machines under one roof than ANY other manufacturer in ANY industry. Just what in the world is going on up there? Product is not being delivered, and what is has serious functioning and reliability issues.
I would like to think that they are concerned, but from where I sit, it does not seem so. They may be kissing up to the big agencies, making subtle design changes for LASD or NYPD (who still is not convinced, apparently - and perhaps for good reason), but they do not instill consumer confidence by talking openly about issues such as these mag followers. And acknowledging the need for a fix. Springs and polymer followers are not expensive, yet they will get you killed or turn the pistol into a "jam-a-matic." Agencies will simply not put up with it. And as silly as it is, consumers for the most part tend to follow the agencies.
Someone up there needs to have their butt kicked. I am basically sick of seeing their PR guys who in my mind are sort of putting out fires and repeating the company line, almost like that Iraq public relations guy who was on TV saying the Americans are not here, when you could see the tanks rolling in the background. Two things are true of the gun business that may not be true in other industries: (1) When lives are on the line, trust is everything; and, (2) if you make a deal with the gun control people, lifelong customers will drop you like a hot potato.
Do any of you REALLY trust S&W and their lack of transparency with respect to issues that customers are seeing, photographing and griping about in numbers that cannot be ignored, all the while the company official line is that "we know of no failures with (here insert problem, whether it be internal locks, magazine drop issues, light strikes, bad springs, shattering trigger return springs or whatever)."
Personally, I would rather see them be up front, acknowledge a problem and say what and why and how it is fixed. The Shield safety check is a mystery. They say what to check, but they do not say what is bad or what they are doing. Sorry, but that is, in my opinion, bad business, as it leads to all sorts of "internet experts" filling the void with BS which further damages the company reputation.
I am sorry to say all of this. If you look at the vast majority of my posts, I am very supportive, but I am truly concerned that S&W is going to have to answer publicly to a huge LE agency which will just kill the M&P, which is what they pin their hopes to for future sales.
Please, S&W - don't let our favorite brand get trashed again.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
Shawn McCarver
In a lot of ways, I am starting to be surprised that the M&P has not followed the SIGMA into obscurity. A quick re-cap: Initial problems with light strikes attributed to improperly cut chambers making the headspace wrong, then a re-design of the slide stop lever, then more persistent reports of light strikes, magazine drops, slide rails shearing off during sight replacement, sights too loose, sights too tight, white dots falling out every 5 minutes, safety alerts, LASD recalls the M&P 9 from the approved list, then back on, then they get a big contract from LASD (if they start having mag issues, the whole world will know and M&P will be killed dead for LE contracts), now a post about weak or improper heat treatment on magazine spring, and on top of it, the trigger return spring still has the tampon which, when lost, guarantees that the trigger return spring will shatter from vibration.
And on top of it, S&W does not tell anyone about anything, as far as issues, serial number ranges, etc. For me, that means there is virtually no way to determine what you are getting. If you get a bad one, it means trip after trip to the factory, and whether the pistol returns actually working or not has odds that seem almost worse than a trip to a gambling casino.
I have no idea what in the world kind of operation they are running up there, but if consumer confidence goes in the tank (and it might very well), then agencies will simply go to the "U" catalog number Glocks, which are made right here in the USA.
I am old enough to have lived through S&W's awful period in the 60s when you couldn't get a desirable model from them (Model 15, 19, 27 or 29 in revolvers) unless you also agreed to take J frames in 38 S&W and .32s and other stuff that was not popular. They were the only game in town and they knew it. Colt had been losing market share steadily and was in and out of near bankruptcy, buy outs, and all sorts of issues, and Ruger had not yet brought out its Security Six Series. Then the K frame Magnum issues happened, then the L frames, and the first thing out of the box was a massive recall for the "M" modification, and everyone had pretty much had it with S&W. People were hungry for a reliable new idea. And Glocks started to trickle in in 81 or 82, and they had set up shop here in 85, and those who didn't laugh or make fun of them were rejoicing when they got the bad press for being supposedly invisible to x-ray, when over 80% of the gun was steel and the polymer frame itself was still visible on x-ray. And then S&W was overtaken and has been playing catch up ever since.
They better get their act together or they are going to wind up with a ruined reputation for their top-of-the-line "premium" duty pistol. And, like the SIGMA, there will be no going back.
Sorry, but S&W has the largest factory around as far as I know, and they brag about more CNC machines under one roof than ANY other manufacturer in ANY industry. Just what in the world is going on up there? Product is not being delivered, and what is has serious functioning and reliability issues.
I would like to think that they are concerned, but from where I sit, it does not seem so. They may be kissing up to the big agencies, making subtle design changes for LASD or NYPD (who still is not convinced, apparently - and perhaps for good reason), but they do not instill consumer confidence by talking openly about issues such as these mag followers. And acknowledging the need for a fix. Springs and polymer followers are not expensive, yet they will get you killed or turn the pistol into a "jam-a-matic." Agencies will simply not put up with it. And as silly as it is, consumers for the most part tend to follow the agencies.
Someone up there needs to have their butt kicked. I am basically sick of seeing their PR guys who in my mind are sort of putting out fires and repeating the company line, almost like that Iraq public relations guy who was on TV saying the Americans are not here, when you could see the tanks rolling in the background. Two things are true of the gun business that may not be true in other industries: (1) When lives are on the line, trust is everything; and, (2) if you make a deal with the gun control people, lifelong customers will drop you like a hot potato.
Do any of you REALLY trust S&W and their lack of transparency with respect to issues that customers are seeing, photographing and griping about in numbers that cannot be ignored, all the while the company official line is that "we know of no failures with (here insert problem, whether it be internal locks, magazine drop issues, light strikes, bad springs, shattering trigger return springs or whatever)."
Personally, I would rather see them be up front, acknowledge a problem and say what and why and how it is fixed. The Shield safety check is a mystery. They say what to check, but they do not say what is bad or what they are doing. Sorry, but that is, in my opinion, bad business, as it leads to all sorts of "internet experts" filling the void with BS which further damages the company reputation.
I am sorry to say all of this. If you look at the vast majority of my posts, I am very supportive, but I am truly concerned that S&W is going to have to answer publicly to a huge LE agency which will just kill the M&P, which is what they pin their hopes to for future sales.
Please, S&W - don't let our favorite brand get trashed again.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
Shawn McCarver
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Not sure what this means, but offering the info so you all can factor it in.
I have an M&P 9 Pro Series C.O.R.E. with 8/22/13 on the spent casing package and HPH for the serial.
I bought 1 mag from Midway a couple of weeks ago and 2 with the core. I also have an older mag from Midway that I got sometime last summer. All of the followers look the same, and function well. Neither have the new little notch taken out of the followers.
Hope this helps.
I have an M&P 9 Pro Series C.O.R.E. with 8/22/13 on the spent casing package and HPH for the serial.
I bought 1 mag from Midway a couple of weeks ago and 2 with the core. I also have an older mag from Midway that I got sometime last summer. All of the followers look the same, and function well. Neither have the new little notch taken out of the followers.
Hope this helps.
smokey0118
Member
I've been around a couple m&p mag failures where it seems the follower is binding on the magazine catch cutout on its way up. Is the design change to prevent the left front corner from binding on the mag catch cutout? I'll take a mag that doesn't drop free as positively it if means the overall design is more reliable.
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Ofc.JL
Member
Smokey0118, Sir, you may be right. While the diffence in the "new" follower and the "new, new" follower is minute, it is there, and it is visable, and it is causing a problem. What will prove the theory is if S&W comes out w/ a new slide lock w/ a different tab shape. If several of you ask for and get "New new" followers(compare them and tell us, plz!) because your new mags aren't engaging, and the problem remains, a new slide lock tab shape will be in order. And S&W, God Bless 'Em, will not tell anyone, but just make a rolling change in new manufactured pistols. We will just have to hid and watch. And for all you detractors about the M&P haveing sooo many problems, well, go ask Gl**k home many times that they have re-engineered the extractors on just their 9mm line of pistols, trying to get utmost reliability. I think it may be up to 6, at current count, although I may be mistaken, however, I think I am right. All manufacturers should keep improving their products as peoples lives may be at stake, based upon the pistol's ability to perform in less that ideal conditions.
S&W has done it for years. Ever wonder why your old S&W revolver model number has a -2, or -5, etc, on the frame? Ongoing engineering changes. And unannouced, too.
S&W has done it for years. Ever wonder why your old S&W revolver model number has a -2, or -5, etc, on the frame? Ongoing engineering changes. And unannouced, too.
AR-Getsome
Member
Anyone hear anything yet from S&W. I purchased 2 new followers from midway to replace in the newer magazines we are having issues with. I was hoping they would be NOS followers. They were not. Same issues. Good thing I have 9 older magazines with no issues.
I finally got my two replacement followers today (apparently it takes three weeks to put a couple of pieces of plastic in an envelope). I was disappointed but not surprised to find that they are no different from the one I was having trouble with, and did not fix the problem.
So for the time being, I'm stuck with only three working magazines. I shoot IDPA, which requires three magazines, so if I ever have a magazine failure I have no backup. I can't use a magazine in competition if I can't be sure it will drop free when I press the mag release.
I've been very happy with my M&P until now, but as far as I'm concerned this problem makes it a dead end. Unless it's fixed (and so far, I haven't even heard that S&W acknowledges the problem), I'm going to be looking for a new competition gun.
So for the time being, I'm stuck with only three working magazines. I shoot IDPA, which requires three magazines, so if I ever have a magazine failure I have no backup. I can't use a magazine in competition if I can't be sure it will drop free when I press the mag release.
I've been very happy with my M&P until now, but as far as I'm concerned this problem makes it a dead end. Unless it's fixed (and so far, I haven't even heard that S&W acknowledges the problem), I'm going to be looking for a new competition gun.
So after all of the posts etc.. I have waited until today to order. I ordered just one from Midway. I will post results as soon as I take it for a test drive.
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The fact that I know, hope this helps.
My gun has a test fire date of 05/23/13. It was supplied with two magazines. I purchased an third magazine from Midway and it arrived on 11/08/13. I looks identical to with the two I already have. I have not fired it yet but it cycles just fine with snap caps and the slide locks after the last round is ejected.
I tried to take pictures, sorry but my equipment just doesn't do the trick.
My gun has a test fire date of 05/23/13. It was supplied with two magazines. I purchased an third magazine from Midway and it arrived on 11/08/13. I looks identical to with the two I already have. I have not fired it yet but it cycles just fine with snap caps and the slide locks after the last round is ejected.
I tried to take pictures, sorry but my equipment just doesn't do the trick.
Resurrecting this old thread for a (hopefully final) update.
To recap, back in October I got some replacement followers from S&W, but they were no better than the bad one I already had and didn't fix the problem. Unsure what to do, I put the bad magazine aside and just didn't use it.
A couple of months ago I was in a gun store and saw factory M&P mags finally back in stock. And unlike the one I got from Midway, these were in the S&W-branded plastic packaging, not a Zip-Loc bag. A friend at the store let me try one of the new mags in one of their M&Ps, and it worked correctly.
Hoping that this meant the problem was finally resolved, I called S&W again and told them the story. They once again sent me two replacement followers, which I received yesterday. Success! The new followers are very slightly wider at the front (not tapered like the bad ones), and they engage my slide stop correctly. I finally have another working mag.
I think what happened is that last year, during the worst of the supply problem, S&W hired a new contractor to make M&P magazines. These were the ones in the plastic bags, and they had off-spec followers. More recently, it seems that S&W has caught up with demand (or perhaps they've just straightened out their contractor). Either way, it looks to me like the mags now on the market no longer have this problem.
To recap, back in October I got some replacement followers from S&W, but they were no better than the bad one I already had and didn't fix the problem. Unsure what to do, I put the bad magazine aside and just didn't use it.
A couple of months ago I was in a gun store and saw factory M&P mags finally back in stock. And unlike the one I got from Midway, these were in the S&W-branded plastic packaging, not a Zip-Loc bag. A friend at the store let me try one of the new mags in one of their M&Ps, and it worked correctly.
Hoping that this meant the problem was finally resolved, I called S&W again and told them the story. They once again sent me two replacement followers, which I received yesterday. Success! The new followers are very slightly wider at the front (not tapered like the bad ones), and they engage my slide stop correctly. I finally have another working mag.
I think what happened is that last year, during the worst of the supply problem, S&W hired a new contractor to make M&P magazines. These were the ones in the plastic bags, and they had off-spec followers. More recently, it seems that S&W has caught up with demand (or perhaps they've just straightened out their contractor). Either way, it looks to me like the mags now on the market no longer have this problem.
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