When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?

[Rule3]

Why carry a 357 Sig when a (insert caliber) is so much better?


Please advise the Military, FBI and local LEO all over the world.

 

[Borderboss]

That is somewhat true but not completely true: An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association.

Even the Secret Service was going to stick with .357 SIG until they tested the G32 and the G19. Because Glocks are significantly lighter than the P229, they felt 9mm handled better for the AVERAGE person than .357 SIG, and I concur depending on the shooter (women & smaller statured men), especially after owning a Glock 33. It is slightly better at virtually everything than 9mm by a few percentage points because of the velocity. That might not sound like a lot, and it's not, unless someone loses their life by a very close call. Certainly it is a bigger difference than those choosing between 9mm, 9mm +P and 9mm +P+. That's what makes me scratch my head. Why do all these 9mm guys (like myself) insist on 9mm high pressure cartridges but feel .357 SIG offers no advantage? I can undertand someone only shooting standard pressure, but not 9mm +P & +P+. Either way, .357 SIG has a modest advantage that may or may not make a difference. But if .357 SIG was more affordable, you could load it EXACTLY like any 9mm cartridge while maintaining the ability to increase its velocity to negotiate barriers better or to get that modest edge in ballistics generally.

I'm willing to bet a dollar that 90%+ of the ".357" stats were .357 Magnum. If there was enough data on the .357 SIG, the study would have separated it out. So it's disingenuous to compare that data to the 9mm.

 

[Echo40]

I have seen tests where both 9mm and .357 have same penatration but the kinetic energy from .357 cannot easily be measured.

My everyday carry is usually my FN57 because the cartridge is totally bad *** but when I am not carrying that my .357Sig is my next logical choice.

I do prefer to plink with 9mm however

When it comes to .357 SIG, it seems self-explanatory that it would be more effective than 9mm Luger because it's a bullet of equal size traveling at substantially higher velocity. If folks want to argue that fact, then I would like them to explain why 9mm Luger is more effective than .380 ACP, and assuming their answer is because it's launching a heavier, higher velocity bullet, then I would like to see then explain how it is that the same factors which make 9mm Luger more effective than .380 ACP somehow make absolutely no difference for .357 SIG.

5.7x28 FN has always been an interesting cartridge to me. At one point in time it was poised to replace 9x19 in NATO Forces, but then the German delegation basically threw a fit because they just couldn't accept a German Cartridge like 9x19 being replaced by a French Cartridge, which effectively delayed its adoption indefinitely.

Recently I purchased a Romanian Tokarev TTC chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev, which is basically the 5.7x28 FN of the early 19th century. A small caliber, high velocity bottlenecked cartridge with armor-piercing capabilities. One thing that puzzles me is why it never really made a comeback considering that it does pretty much everything newer cartridges of the same vein like 5.7x28 FN and .22 TCM can do, but with a larger bullet and greater energy.

Except it's not just gel tests. Results from real-world shootings show very little difference in actual effectiveness among the service calibers, from 9mm to .45ACP.

As previously stated, the 9mm Luger is an adequate duty cartridge, meaning in terms of effectiveness, it's as good as it needs to be to stop a threat, ergo a critical hit with a 9mm cannot be improved upon by a more powerful cartridge. No sense in splitting hairs if it gets the job done.

I merely prefer .40 S&W and .357 SIG due to their potential to produce greater damage per shot in a firearm of equal size.

 

[diyj98]

My friend offered to go in half with me if I bought a case of HST 147. Considering it is $800 a case, it sounded great however, I have a case of HST .357 Sig so it's hard to justify getting 9mm when .357 Sig is way better than 9mm +P, 9mm +P+ so it makes no sense to buy a case of 9mm. Anyone else feel the same?

Couldn't you make the same argument about the 10mm over the 357 Sig? It's kind of like all the other caliber debates. 40S&W vs 357 SIG, 45acp vs 9mm, etc.

 

[Racer X]

Why carry a 357 Sig when a (insert caliber) is so much better?


Please advise the Military, FBI and local LEO all over the world.

It's budget. The cost to train rises with the cost of ammo.

 

[Mister X]

I guess I pretty much agree with Dr.Gary Roberts(DocGKR) when he wrote...

"Compared to a 9mm, the .357 Sig has a decreased magazine capacity, more recoil, as well as greater muzzle blast and flash, yet at best it offers no gain in bullet penetration and expansion characteristics. What is the point of this cartridge?"

 

[wheelgun28]

I didn't even know 357sig was still a thing, I thought it was another forgotten caliber.

Who knew?

It always seemed like a good answer to a problem that didn't exist.

If you like it enjoy it!!

 

[Echo40]

Couldn't you make the same argument about the 10mm over the 357 Sig? It's kind of like all the other caliber debates. 40S&W vs 357 SIG, 45acp vs 9mm, etc.

10mm Auto simply cannot fit inside of a 9mm size frame, whereas .357 SIG can.

For 10mm you have to go up a frame size, and for some, the grip size of 10mm is too big to fit their hands properly, which in turn results in poorer accuracy.

Also, for all the hype 10mm Auto receives, it just sort of lands in a weird spot in terms of power. Most commercially available factory loaded ammunition is loaded to FBI Specifications, making it the ballistic equivalent of .40 S&W because the 10mm FBI load was the reduced power load which was the basis of the .40 S&W cartridge. Oh, but 10mm FBI Loads cost substantially more than .40 S&W.
Boutique loads are hotter, closer to the original Norma Spec ammo, but ballistically it's generally no better than .357 Magnum at best. 10mm Auto loads which can match .41 Magnum ballistics are an Urban Legend based on some watered down .41 Magnum loads Remington offered which specifications appeared in reloading manuals.

There's a reason why 10mm Auto never really achieved mainstream popularity to match .380 ACP, 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, or even .40 S&W. Full-Power loads are better suited for quadrupedal predators like Bears than it is for humans, and the reduced power loads are no better than .40 S&W, yet they're in a longer case and cost more money. So if you subscribe to the belief that .40 S&W offers no tangible benefit over 9mm Luger, then 10mm FBI is even worse because it requires a bigger gun, costs substantially more than 9mm, and offers nothing in return for it.

I didn't even know 357sig was still a thing, I thought it was another forgotten caliber.

Who knew?

It always seemed like a good answer to a problem that didn't exist.

It was never designed to solve a specific problem, it was designed specifically to appeal to Police Departments who favored the .357 Magnum by duplicating the performance of the 125gr .357 Magnum load which had an almost legendary reputation as a man-stopper within the field of Law Enforcement.

That being said, it definitely has its advantages, such as superior barrier penetration compared to 9mm Luger and even .40 S&W, which made it popular with Highway Patrol units in particular because it offers more straight-line penetration through autoglass, whereas the trajectory of 9mm Luger and .40 S&W tends to deviate more after striking the angled surface of a windshield.

 

[WR Moore]

The Sig round really doesn't have a real world advantage over the 9mm UNLESS you're talking about vehicle penetration (glass/sheet metal). Gotta agree with Dr. Roberts there.

Also real world, back before retirement, we'd invite the local VA State Police in for our night shooting work. Give them a chance to do things in dim light. After we got over the muzzle blast thing, we realized that the muzzle flash lit up our targets. We'd wait for one of them to fire and then shoot at the illuminated targets. Did wonders for our scores, the staties weren't shooting for record.

Hopefully some of you enthusiasts will realize it also locates the user for anyone with whoever you may have shot at.

I do grant that you do get the mixed blessings of a flash bang without all the restrictions of the real thing.

BTW, something to consider, I have a "moderate" hearing loss due to limited unprotected use of firearms. Along with a 24/7/365 concert from tinitus [screwed up the OSHA reports on retirement ].

 

[Echo40]

The Sig round really doesn't have all that much real world advantage over the 9mm UNLESS you're talking about vehicle penetration (glass/sheet metal).

Also real world, back before retirement, we'd invite the local VA State Police in for our night shooting work. Give them a chance to do things in dim light. After we got over the muzzle blast thing, we realized that the muzzle flash lit up our targets. We'd wait for one of them to fire and then shoot at the illuminated targets. Did wonders for our scores, the staties weren't shooting for record.

I do grant that you do get the mixed blessings of a flash bang without all the restrictions of the real thing.

That's one of the many things folks fail to appreciate when it comes to more powerful cartridges. Often times things such as a louder report and brighter muzzle flash are considered strictly detrimental, yet if you think about it, a firearm which produces a brighter muzzle flash and louder report is going to be far more disorienting, not to mention intimidating to the guy on the receiving end. A frightened, disorented, and quite possibly demoralized enemy is one who is more likely to make mistakes, surrender, or retreat.

Obviously Psychological Stops shouldn't be relied upon, but a potential advantage is a potential advantage and a victory is a victory. So if you can handle the sharper recoil impulse without any negative impact on your ability to hit the target and the cost of ammo isn't a financial burden, then I don't see any reason not to take advantage of every potential advantage that the cartridge has to offer.

 

[diyj98]

10mm Auto simply cannot fit inside of a 9mm size frame, whereas .357 SIG can.

For 10mm you have to go up a frame size, and for some, the grip size of 10mm is too big to fit their hands properly, which in turn results in poorer accuracy.

But if we're basing this on frame size, you could argue that the 9mm/40/357 are all inferior to the 380acp and smaller sized cartridges.

It was never designed to solve a specific problem, it was designed specifically to appeal to Police Departments who favored the .357 Magnum by duplicating the performance of the 125gr .357 Magnum load which had an almost legendary reputation as a man-stopper within the field of Law Enforcement.

That being said, it definitely has its advantages, such as superior barrier penetration compared to 9mm Luger and even .40 S&W, which made it popular with Highway Patrol units in particular because it offers more straight-line penetration through autoglass, whereas the trajectory of 9mm Luger and .40 S&W tends to deviate more after striking the angled surface of a windshield.

Perhaps, but it seems to have went the way of the 40 S&W, but even worse as far as popularity and resale value.

 

[badge]

My sentiments exactly. I don't see the point in carrying a 9mm Luger when I can carry the more powerful .40 S&W or .357 SIG in the exact same size firearm.

Folks can parrot the FBI's justification for downgrading to 9mm all they want, but their Ballistics Gel Testing is not the end all, be all, and actual human beings have bones which tend to be affected far more dramatically by bigger, heavier, and/or faster projectiles, not to mention suffer less deviation when they strike a hard object such as a bone, so I choose to carry something with more oomph.

Not to say that 9mm Luger isn't a capable duty cartridge, because it obviously is adequate for the task, I simply choose to carry something more because I can and to me the sacrifice of 2-3 rounds in the magazine is more than compensated by the increase in kinetic energy.

harry knows of what he speaks. I agree. I shoot the .357 Sig well. I am not denigrating the 9mm. Carry what you like and shoot well whatever that caliber may be.

 

[sigp220.45]

I have both 9mm and .357 Sig carry guns. Both have their place.

I appreciate the "shock and awe" of the Sig round. I'll worry about hearing aids later.

 

[Univibe]

The medical examiner and the ER doctor can't tell what caliber it was, or what the bullet design was, from looking at the body. All this obsession over bullet design, and 150 fps difference, and 1.0mm difference in diameter, is hogwash.

A bullet either damages a vital organ, or it does not. To do so, you have to put it in the right place, and it has to penetrate deeply enough to get there. If it does, it has damaged a vital organ. If not, then not.

Tell me, if a bullet makes a .356 inch hole in an aorta, what's the difference if it came from a .38 spl, .357 magnum, .38 super, 9mm Luger, or .357 Sig? None.


Same rule in the caliber wars. A .452" hole in a heart does the same thing as a .356" hole in a heart. And the heart will certainly never tell the difference between a .400" hole, and a .356" hole.

The problem with the mouseguns, i.e. .22LR, .25, .32, is not lack of expansion, it's lack of penetration. Bullets are slow and light, and just don't get to a vital organ. Except when they do, and then a .22LR's effects are just as dramatic as those produced by a .45.


Unlike virtually all internet experts, I've studied the forensics, read the autopsy reports, interviewed pathologists and ER doctors, and actually handled and photographed bullets that have killed people.

If you put the bullet onto a vital organ, and the bullet penetrates effectively, you have done all you can do. If you or the bullet fail, then not.


Anything else is marketing hype, anecdotal evidence, or replication of gun-store talk and internet lore.

For the record: I carry 9mm and use Winchester Q4318 NATO 124 grain FMJ.

 

[marathonrunner]

Couldn't you make the same argument about the 10mm over the 357 Sig? It's kind of like all the other caliber debates. 40S&W vs 357 SIG, 45acp vs 9mm, etc.

I have seen tests where the .357 Sig was better than .40 caliber at penatrating pine wood

 

[malph]

I have seen tests where the .357 Sig was better than .40 caliber at penatrating pine wood

If I feel in danger of being attacked by pine wood. I'll remember this post.

Just kidding!

 

[tlawler]

A 9mm in the same platform as a .357 Sig carries more bullets in the magazine because it needs to

 

[Rubone]

Why carry a 357 Sig when a (insert caliber) is so much better?


Please advise the Military, FBI and local LEO all over the world.

They don't get to choose, the number crunchers do. They are stuck with what they are given, and the bottom line drives all...

 

[marathonrunner]

The Sig round really doesn't have a real world advantage over the 9mm UNLESS you're talking about vehicle penetration (glass/sheet metal). Gotta agree with Dr. Roberts there.

Also real world, back before retirement, we'd invite the local VA State Police in for our night shooting work. Give them a chance to do things in dim light. After we got over the muzzle blast thing, we realized that the muzzle flash lit up our targets. We'd wait for one of them to fire and then shoot at the illuminated targets. Did wonders for our scores, the staties weren't shooting for record.

Hopefully some of you enthusiasts will realize it also locates the user for anyone with whoever you may have shot at.

I do grant that you do get the mixed blessings of a flash bang without all the restrictions of the real thing.

BTW, something to consider, I have a "moderate" hearing loss due to limited unprotected use of firearms. Along with a 24/7/365 concert from tinitus [screwed up the OSHA reports on retirement ].

Dr. Roberts does not take into account the kinetic energy of the .357 sig round. It may not penatrate any deeper but it causes more shock to the brain.

 

[eb07]

I'll stick with 5 shots of 38 special or 44 special.