When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?

Gel tests aren't the end all be all but Lucky Gunner testing basically came up with the results that there isn't much point in the hotter 357 Sig round.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkus6kKodpU[/ame]
 
Can't remember a fatality that involved being shot with a .357 Sig down here. Mostly .22's 9's and fawtys Average shooter is poor and cannot afford the .357 Sig round. Recent homicides were going back to the basics like cane knives and folders. If it hits the right place it's gonna kill ya no matter what size round you are using . If I had to pick one center fire round for the rest on my life it would be a 9mm. Rifle round it would be the 7.62x39 Ubiquitous the world over and cheap too (compared to stuff like the 4.35 x 27 screaming whompenstomper). But for pure shootin' satisfaction, ya can't beat the good ol' .22rf. Aim straight and one will do the trick-if he's still movin' shoot again.
 
I'll stick with 5 shots of 38 special or 44 special.

Both have been around for a long time and have proven themselves to be capable cartridges. Most civilian Self-Defense shootings are over in 1-3 shots, and you've got 2 more in reserve, so you should be fine.

Pretty much any cartridge from .22LR upward can potentially deadly if it hits the right spot, and .38 Special has served policemen well for the better part of a century right up until police started using hollowpoints, which unfortunately seem to have been rather poor performers back in those days considering that up until then the .38 Special had a good reputation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those annoying people that believes that there exists some ideal one-size-fits-all cartridge, nor that anyone who chooses to carry anything less "has a death wish" or "doesn't take their self-defense seriously" and I'm most certainly not one of those insecure men who just can't live with the fact that other men may opt to carry something more powerful that I. In fact, I find such naive people to be utterly insufferable. They're always going around, second-guessing everyone and making ignorant statements based purely on conjecture. The Village Idiots of the firearms community.

For the longest time I carried nothing but a .380 ACP pistol, and to this very day I feel that .380 ACP is a viable choice for self-defense, I only started carrying more after wild animals started wandering out of the woods which surround my neighborhood. (.380 ACP may be adequate for bipedal predators, but hardier quadrupeds...?) Besides, I can handle more, so why not? So now I carry a .40cal because that's as low as I'm willing to go when it comes to dangerous animals like boar. Some would say it's insufficient, but it seems to be enough for a number of park rangers as well as Fish & Game.
 
I'm willing to bet a dollar that 90%+ of the ".357" stats were .357 Magnum. If there was enough data on the .357 SIG, the study would have separated it out. So it's disingenuous to compare that data to the 9mm.

That's a fair question, but what are you basing that on? Isn't it just as questionable to ignore the claims by dismissing it without knowing? You might want to contact Columbus PD LEO/LEO firearms instructor Greg Ellifritz who spent ten years collecting the data for this study and see what he has to say about it.

The data was collected in this century so I would imagine that the vast majority of guns were either snubbies which lose their ballistic advantage because their short barrels have no advantage over 9mm (see MAC's video comparing them) or .357 SIG semi auto pistols (particularly popular in certain law enforcement agencies like state police). I'm sure some of these were long barrel revolvers, but to say 90% of them were in the 21st century is a logical leap in my opinion. It is a valid logical leap, in other words, I think it's a good question, but I think it's a poor basis of dismissing an LEO's hard work without inquiring about it.

Remember, the .357 SIG is NOT a .357" bullet like the .357 Magnum, it's a .355" (9mm) bullet designed to mimic the 125 grain .357 MAGNUM LAW ENFORCEMENT LOADS that were most popular after decades of use. While .357 SIG loads are on average less powerful than .357 Magnum loads (526 vs 574 ft. lbs.), .357 SIG is more than capable of delivering this energy without over penetrating (e.g. my 636 ft. lbs. of my 65 grain Underwood XD bullets which deliver a larger permanent wound channel than any .357 Magnum hollow point).

If Ellifritz didn't feel he had enough .357 SIG data, he likely would have pointed this out as he did in the study regarding other calibers. It's still a valid question, however, but as I pointed out, that may have been a valid conclusion 30 years ago, but in this century it is far less certain. Finally, even if that is the case, the .357 SIG was designed to mimic the best LEO .357 Magnum loads which are not the most powerful ones as over penetrating will result in sacrificing any ballistic advantage a more powerful load has. For example, if you note in the study, .44 Magnum fails to incapacitate 13% of the time tied with 9mm and .40 S&W despite having double the energy. That's because so much of it leaves the body as the bullet passes through. As one medical examiner pointed out in an article, he never personally saw a .357 caliber bullet leave the body and he never saw a .44 Magnum stay in one.

So what you're saying about 90% of the results likely being .357 Magnum is certainly worth investigating, but it is far from likely in my opinion. And even if it was true, that might mean .357 SIG is even underestimated as a .357 SIG bullet is going to deliver much more energy than a .357 Magnum snub nosed revolver.

What is great about .357 SIG is exactly what is great about 9mm. In my opinion the .355" diameter is more efficient and generating power (remember, k.e. = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared which is why a premium is placed on velocity). This is because 9mm bullets are lighter and have a greater BC (ballistic coefficient) which means that they are more aerodynamic than larger diameter bullets but they don't drop off in performance as we see with smaller rounds like .32 ACP and .25 ACP which fail to incapacitate approximately 35-40% of the time compared to 9-13% of the time like 9mm, .357 SIG, .357 Mag, .40 S&W and .44 Magnums as indicated in the study. Are you starting to see a pattern emerge?
 
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Couldn't you make the same argument about the 10mm over the 357 Sig? It's kind of like all the other caliber debates. 40S&W vs 357 SIG, 45acp vs 9mm, etc.

I don't want to answer for him, but the answer is at least not necessarily (if not no). His point is that .380 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, and .357 SIG are all .355" (9mm) bullets differing only in velocity (with gains being had each time velocity significantly increases). .380 ACP and .357 SIG are marketing devices meant to remind people that they were semi-auto cartridges meant to provide the ballistics of a .38 Special cartridges and .357 Magnums respectively. A 10mm is a .40" bullet just like a .40 S&W. The larger diameter bullets have a lower BC (ballistic coefficient) which means they are less aerodynamic (the higher the number the more efficient it is). This is important because velocity builds energy exponentially more than mass (which is why a 6.5 Creedmoor out performs .308 after 300-500 yards). More importantly, this is also why the basic formula for kinetic energy is k.e. = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. This means that you take 1/2 of the mass and multiply it times the velocity squared (times itself) because the latter is that much more important in building energy (which is part of why smaller/lighter/faster pistol rounds penetrate body armor whereas larger/heavier/slower rounds do not). The .355" bullet is simply more efficient than a .40 S&W or even a 10mm in building energy because it can go much faster (which would require more powder to propel a heavier round to an equal speed).

Now 10mm has a large enough case to increase the velocity significantly enough to provide more energy than a .357 SIG, but a 630 ft. lb. 10mm (.40") bullet is going to be heavier than a 630 ft. lb. .357 (.355") SIG. This is going to do two things. One, heavier bullets tend to penetrate deeper (all things being equal). If you look at bullets in general, the hotter 10mm self-defense rounds have a harder time staying within the FBI's guideline of 18" of penetration. When they do they can technically offer more energy, but remember, most penetration ratings are averages, so the higher the average, the higher percent of projectiles are still going to leave the body. So for example, an underwood .357 SIG might be rated at 17.5" and a 10mm at 18". As an average, the latter will over penetrate more. Does that matter? I don't have the data to say one way or another for sure, but the heavier projectile relying more on mass than a smaller bullet (which relies more on energy) is going to provide more recoil which means follow up shots are not as fast with 10mm. This is why in my opinion 10mm is not as good unless we're fighting brown bear. Like I said, however, that is only speculation on my part because 10mm was not prevalent enough to include in the study I cited herein. But for all these reasons, it's a good bet .357 SIG is better. There's a reason why the secret service chose it over 10mm. And they would have stayed with .357 SIG but the service is more inclusive than it used to be (to include women and smaller statured men). As I pointed out, they were interested first in adopting the Glock in .357 SIG but their smaller shooters have a harder time with the muzzle blast even though a 125 grain 9mm Parabellum bullet and a 125 grain .357 SIG bullet have the same amount of recoil (Newton's Third law). The muzzle blast is more substantial, so it makes the same 9mm bullet more flippy in a .357 SIG. That said, a 65 gr. .357 SIG is less than half the weight and delivers far more energy and it is a *****cat compared to 10mm.
 
It's budget. The cost to train rises with the cost of ammo.

Exactly. It's also because of "diversity" (the inclusion of women and smaller stature men). Interestingly enough I went to Fort William Henry/Fort George on Lake George years ago, and the tour guide, who was also a PhD student, mentioned something interesting. According to the fort's records, even though men were shorter back then, the soldiers had to be 6 ft. tall minimum. This was true more or less on average in law enforcement and military applications until the 1980's and is even more so today. THAT is at least part of the reason we don't see .357 SIG more popular as you and I know it can do everything a 9mm can do but better.
 
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Gel tests aren't the end all be all but Lucky Gunner testing basically came up with the results that there isn't much point in the hotter 357 Sig round.
YouTube

I am literally the source of the Luckygunner mentioning the study in his series of videos. He didn't know who Greg Ellifritz was until I mentioned him and his study. He even dismissed Greg Ellifritz saying he doubted he had a masters in public administration (which I set straight because he does, moreover he attended many of the autopsies personally). That's the kind of comments naysayers make as if it matters. These gel tests are also unreliable because of the Clear Ballistics gelatin they use. There is a reason why the FBI doesn't use clear gel, and there is also a reason they use one shot per block. The agency uses Gelita 250 Bloom Type A Ordnance Gelatin packaged in 50 lb bags as priced below:

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As an aside, Luckygunner's tests are restricted to ammunition that they carry (no Underwood or Lehigh Defense XD rounds are ever tested). I wouldn't use the Luckygunner as a source for anything other than fast shipping. ;)
 

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My sentiments exactly. I don't see the point in carrying a 9mm Luger when I can carry the more powerful .40 S&W or .357 SIG in the exact same size firearm.

Folks can parrot the FBI's justification for downgrading to 9mm all they want, but their Ballistics Gel Testing is not the end all, be all, and actual human beings have bones which tend to be affected far more dramatically by bigger, heavier, and/or faster projectiles, not to mention suffer less deviation when they strike a hard object such as a bone, so I choose to carry something with more oomph.

Not to say that 9mm Luger isn't a capable duty cartridge, because it obviously is adequate for the task, I simply choose to carry something more because I can and to me the sacrifice of 2-3 rounds in the magazine is more than compensated by the increase in kinetic energy.
I agree with EVERYTHING you typed! I have several 9mm's, but prefer to carry one of my FS M&P .40's. I have several LE trade in 1.0 40 calibers. One of them has a factory S&W .357 SIG barrel in it. I sometimes EDC it with Ranger T-Series 125 gr. Gold Talons. They're like a Ranger T-Series 9mm +P+ on steroids.
So, yes, go in half with your buddy on the case of ammo. When you get them, PM me. ;)
 
According to the fort's records, even though men were shorter back then, the soldiers had to be 6 ft. tall minimum.

Hmmmm.....I recall a 5'8" minimum for almost all police departments but I never heard that Soldiers had to be 6' tall.

I think he made that up or mis-read something:
Physical Standards In Relation To The Demand For Soldiers

Some physical standards have changed easily with the need for soldiers, which suggests that what may be portrayed as a soldierly characteristic may not be solidly rooted in combat necessity. Height is an example. European monarchs prided themselves on their tall soldiers; it was also convenient to have men of about the same height for drill and ceremony. Some eugenicists claimed that criminals tended to be shorter than the rest of the population (Baxter, 1875), and a retired military surgeon proposed that physical characteristics could identify future heroes (Foster et al., 1967). Thus, the minimum height for U.S. soldiers was 66 inches early in the nineteenth century and has progressively lowered, with the least stringent requirements (no minimum height standard during part of the Civil War) coinciding with national emergencies when new recruits were in greater demand (Figure 3-1). The Romans also imposed height standards on their soldiers, and the usefulness of this selection standard was questioned even then. Vegetius Renatus, a military philosopher, suggested using a more subjective visual appraisal of potential recruits, noting that "when all these marks are found in a recruit, a little height may be dispensed with, as it is of much more importance that a soldier should be strong than that he should be tall" (Baxter, 1875). When health screening capabilities were less advanced, height standards served a health fitness screening purpose; for example, short stature could reflect disease and poor physical development. Thus, even after careful review of physical standards during World War II, men less than 60 inches in height were "nonacceptable" (U.S. Congress, 1944). Today, the best rationale for current height standards is practical: to limit the range of sizes for uniforms, protective ensembles, and workspace dimensions. However, when other reasons are dismissed, commanders argue from anecdotal experience that short soldiers simply cannot carry the same load as their average-height peers (Davenport and Love, 1921).

Body Composition And Military Performance: Origins Of The Army Standards - Body Composition and Physical Performance - NCBI Bookshelf

Copyright 1992 by the National Academy of Sciences.


Sorry about changing the subject but sometimes you have to react to rumors.... :rolleyes:
 
I own two Sig 239s, one in 9mm and one in .357 auto. The .357 is very "whippy", the slide velocity is considerably higher than the 9mm. The muzzle flash and muzzle blast are noticable during the day, and at indoor ranges are very noticable making the .357 unpleasant to shoot more than a little bit. I am glad I have it, I have no intention of selling it, but I have not qualified with it since I originally bought it and have no intention of carrying it. It is definitely a very effective antipersonnel round, but it is difficult to find and expensive to buy ammo for it and I am unwilling to beat myself up to the extent that I feel comfortable carrying it. I guess I am just old.
 
CDNN has recycled SIGs in 357 SIG. There are also 357 SIG barrels for various .40 Caliber pistols.

Geoff
Who notes the 357 SIG was invented to put a 125 gr .357 Magnum equivalent into a semi auto. The FBI had determined the 125 gr .357 Magnum to be the bestest ever pistol round. The SIG comes in about 200 fps slower.
 
Back to business....

FYI, Texas DPS Troopers often carried pistols in .357 SIG. Then they switched back to 9mm. It is what it is......

Texas DPS Switching Service Pistols for Troopers – NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

Copyright AP - Associated Press
Copyright © 2020 NBC Universal Inc. All rights reserved

Most police officers are carrying 9mm Luger these days, but I strongly suspect that that has more to do with the fact that 9mm ammo is significantly cheaper yet still adequate, not because more powerful cartridges offer no tangible advantages whatsoever.

Furthermore, I can't help but wonder how the officers themselves feel about the switch, because obviously they don't have any say in what they're issued. I've heard that a lot of officers were unhappy when they had to trade in their .40s for 9mms, often commenting on how they felt more confident carrying a .40 and how they resented that while guys who didn't have to put their own lives in danger had the most influence over what they were issued. I wouldn't be surprised if the Texas DPS Troopers feel the same.
 
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Following this thread..... made me wonder why we didn't see more agencies adopt the Sig 227 10rds of .45 vs 10 rds of .357 sig in the 229???????


Wike only lists two agencies the Pa and Indiana State police
 
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Since when, did the US Government, worry about the cost of things ?? !!

Do you have that in writing?

Remember back, when they bought toilet seats................. ??

I know for a fact the main reason the FBI switched from .40 to 9mm was ammo cost, because I was there. The ammo budget had basically stayed the same for years and training was being reduced. Figure 1,000 rounds per agent per year just for quals is about 14 million rounds, plus about 10K rounds for every baby agent in the Academy, plus SWAT plus HRT. Its a fair amount of ammo, and even a small savings per case adds up to a bunch more ammo to train with.

The other reasons (improved 9mm loads, easier on guns, easier to shoot) helped, but in the end it was ammo costs.
 
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