When is 100 grains not 100 grains???

[IAM Rand]

So this goes back to the muzzle loader. I took out my 350 grain maxi balls to the range and they worked well. I had a nagging feeling that the pre-marked powder measure I was using to measure the loads might not be as accurate as I was assuming. So I used the brass measure and set it to 100 grains. I then put it on the scale. I found out that 100 grains is actually about 67 grains.

So my dilemma, what do I rely on, the scale or the brass powder measure. No idea where my dad got it but, it has been used many times without dire consequences. Who is the ultimate gauge of what is 100 grains when it comes to muzzle loaders? Do I premeasure on the scale at home and use that? Is Pyrodex measured differently that other powder?

 

[lihpster]

The brass measure you're using is a volume measure. Different density powders will have more or less volume for the same weight.

 

[Pisgah]

BP being used in muzzleloaders is always measured by volume, and you are correct: depending on what brand of powder, and what granulation, 100 by volume could weigh pretty much anything. But if a load calls for 100 gr, what is meant is what's marked 100 on your measure.

 

[Uraldriver]

BP substitutes are always measured by Volume using a BP Measure. 100 grains of Real BP will weigh 100 Grains on a scale. Do Not Weigh substitutes.

 

[lihpster]

BP substitutes are always measured by Volume using a BP Measure. 100 grains of Real BP will weigh 100 Grains on a scale. Do Not Weigh substitutes.

Depends on the granulation. FFg will weigh different than FFFFg.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

If you are using printed loading data, it will say "By Weight" or "By Volume". Be sure to follow that guideline!

Ivan

 

[alwslate]

Check Hodgdon's data. They have information on the relationship between weight and volume between Black Powder, Pyrodex and Triple 7. Do not weigh the BP substitutes or you will get an overcharge.

 

[IAM Rand]

Just out of curiosity, why by volume and not weight. Does it have to do with reloading in the field and not having a scale?

 

[StrawHat]

Just out of curiosity, why by volume and not weight. Does it have to do with reloading in the field and not having a scale?

It has to do with the substitutes being measured by volume. Since then, everyone believes black powder was always measured that way.

I believe that accurate loads are scaled out. Have I made measures that accept an accurately weighed charge of black powder? Of course. I have also thrown away those measures when a new lot of powder weighed differently.

Kevin

 

[mmb617]

Any recommended load charts for real black powder in muzzleloaders that I've seen are by volume. However most real black powder weighs close to 1:1 by volume measure. What I mean is usually a 100 grain charge as indicated on a brass powder measure will be close to 100 grains in weight as well.

As long as you aren't exceeding the limit (by volume) specified by your gun's manufacturer the actual weight of the black powder doesn't mean much. You have to find what works best in your gun and that's usually well below the max load.

As for substitutes I know nothing of them. All my muzzleloaders are flintlocks and they only want real black powder.

 

[smoothshooter]

Reproduction powder measures are a **** shoot when they have a number denoting charge stamped on the side. Same for graduation marks on the sides of adjustable ones.
You are better off removing the existing marks or numbers and putting your own on based on actual weight(s) as you have determined with your scales.
Black powder and it’s substitutes are pretty forgiving,
Except a very, very small percentage of competitive shooters using highly specialized guns, there is nothing to be gained by weighing every charge. Too many other variables are in play hat matter more than having every single charge exactly the same.
With some guys it’s an OCD thing.

 

[IAM Rand]

So I need someone to fault my logic. This thing with measuring the loads by volume has been bugging me. SOOOOooooooooo I did something about it. I took my brass powder measure and set it to 100 grains by volume. I tried to measure the same amount every time. When I push the funnel over it knocks off the excess power. I would then weight the powder. I would get between 69-70 grains by weight. If that is the case then for every 10 grains by volume, you should have .7 grains by weight. I then extrapolated this to 120 grains by volume. It should weigh 84 grains by weight. So I moved my brass powder measure to 120 grains by volume and low and behold, it came out just under 84 grains by weight. The fudge factor is how you fill the measuring device. You could probably use the pour measure 100 times and get something different each time. I would think that empirically it should be .7 by weight to 10 by volume. As I have stated, the fudge factor would be how you pour the load, the shape of the grains and what you use to measure the volume. To go further down the rabbit hole I would have to by more measuring devices and test each one. The problem then is what if the by volume measurement of each different measuring device was different. So what is the right answer? Why can't a load be measured by weight of grains than by volume. Some of the new muzzle loaders aren't even loaded by the muzzle and they use a solid powder system. I would assume that each one of them are the same by weight.

So again I ask, please fault my logic. If someone else out there has a different way they measure by volume please let me know and also measure the volume amount on a scale. I was using ffg pyrodex by the way.

 

[Uraldriver]

It's pretty simple use the BP Measure and use the recommended charge by Volume. I've shot some astounding groups with Muzzleloaders over the years using real BP and the Volumetric measure so the system works.

The substitutes are a combination of chemicals that sort of act like BP but as you have discovered are lighter the real BP. I believe every single Substitute says to measure them by Volume and not weight.

 

[IAM Rand]

I get the volume measurement but, for every volume of a specific substance there is a corresponding weight is there not. So if you know what that weight is per specified volume then wouldn't it be better/more accurate to measure by weight? I have the plastic tubes that I can put a premeasured amount of powder on one side and the bullet on the other with a primer in the lid. The big issues with measuring by volume as I see it is that the irregular shape of the powder and the human factor. As long as you have a good scale your by weight powder should be the same every time.

 

[glowe]

Forget about comparing BP to smokeless. BP powder measures were used in the wilderness for about the first 200 years of settling the New World. How many frontiersmen had a set of scales? None. That is the only reason why BP measures were invented. There is no correlation to weight because you could well use different powder granulations and qualities so a volume measure worked on all of them. Over the centuries, the volume measures became standardized by what worked. Most early settlers used horn or antler measures and not brass. They experimented with loads until achieving the most accurate load, then made their own measures and tied them to their powder horn. They did not know or care what specific volume or weight they were shooting. All they knew is they could hit the target with enough energy to kill.

 

[IAM Rand]

This was never a comparison between smokeless to black powder. I understand what worked in the past. I am living in the now, not the past. If the mountain men and the men that came before them had the knowledge and foresight to have premeasured containers of an exact amount by weight, they might have. Eventually with time they used paper packets of powder and finally cases.

My whole goal with this thread was not to stir controversy but, to determine if it can be done by weight and what the draw backs might be. At this time I am not seeing any downsides. Whether you are using black powder or Pyrodex, you can take a volume measurement and convert it to a more precise weight measurement. Simple, nothing very controversial about it. Just thinking about using my dad's Hawken rifle and trying to think a little outside the box and use premeasured powder in a more precise method in order to have the ability to take as many variables out of the gun and only rely on my ability to make the same shot every time.

 

[alwslate]

Sure you can do that. There are little plastic containers that you can use that have a cap on one end that contains a pre measured amount of powder. The other end has a ball or bullet you can seat. I used to carry several with me when I was actively Deer hunting. You don't have to measure powder in the field. Once you know the relationship between BP and the substitute you are using you can use weighed charges for precision. Some times I just carried used prescription medicine containers with pre weighed power charges. Fast reloading in the field with no spillage