Which 9mm load duplicates the performance of .40 S&W/.45 ACP?

[Echo40]

Since Winter has been getting increasingly cold in my region each year, I've been looking into "calibering up" as some folks call it for the season with a new pistol chambered in either .40 S&W or .45 ACP, but it seems everywhere I go and anywhere the subject is raised, there's always at least a few folks arguing that there's no reason to carry a .40 or a .45 over a 9mm because they're equally effective.

This sentiment has become increasingly common over the years ever since the FBI switched from .40 to 9mm after reaching the same conclusion through testing.
However, as far as I know, the FBI has never divulged what specific 9mm load(s) equate to which load(s) in .40/.45, nor does anybody who repeats the sentiment ever seem to specify.

I've seen too many ammo tests performed on a wide array of media and read too many reports to take a blanket statement like 9mm being equal to .40/.45 at face value.
A standard pressure 115gr 9mm doesn't perform the same as a 230gr .45 ACP for example, ergo there must be a specific 9mm load which closes the gap, or otherwise some 9mm load which equates to another specific load in .40 S&W and .45 ACP, but what load is it?

Honestly, if I can carry a 9mm load that can go toe-to-toe with a .40 or a .45, then obviously I'd love to know what it is because it could save me a lot of money, but I'm skeptical that such a load even exists, so could someone more knowledgeable enlighten me to the specifications of this illusive 9mm Luger load which replicates the performance of larger caliber cartridges?

UPDATE - 09/29/2019 (2 Months Later)
Although this thread died over a month ago, I just felt like posting a little update. By pure chance I happened upon a Smith & Wesson Sigma SW40VE sitting in the case at my LGS like new in box for $199, so after a bit of research I jumped on it and put it on layaway. I would have bought it straight up if I had that much on me at the time, but just as well, it's still surprisingly humid in my area for late September, so I wouldn't be carrying it immediately regardless. So yeah, the subject is officially closed on my end since fate has settled the matter for me, but thanks to everyone who humored me by taking the time to respond to this thread.

 

[ken158]

Switch to the .357 SIG and your problem will be solved or I have seen the FBI ammo report and they are shooting 9mm Hornady critical duty in their new Glocks. I know an agent and have handled his gun and have seen the new ammo and box so this is verified information.

 

[fmflorida]

While yes the FBI did run their tests and determined 9mm is best for their purposes that is mostly because its cheap(er) than other offerings....and its easier to teach "new" people on 9mm than 40/357SIG.

That said, yes there are some VERY good 9mm offerings these days.

Id you want something with good penetration, I would look at Buffalo Bore, Underwood is another good company that makes hot rounds.

What you are asking though, doesnt really have a set answer....Cause you can get .40 ballistics out of a +p+ 9mm......but you can also up the .40/45 and get higher ballistics as well so Im assuming we are talking baseline, off the shelf.

I would take a look at the 2 brands I mentioned and see if they have anything to your liking as they have a wide variety.

With that in mind, if you do decide on a +p+ round.....of course be sure your firearm can handle it.

 

[Echo40]

As cold as it gets and as accommodating my winter attire may be, I don't plan on carrying a Beretta 92FS or a SIG P226, but something more along the lines of a S&W M&P (Shield) or a Ruger LC9s/Security 9, which I doubt are up to the task of shooting +P+ loads.
Besides, if +P+ loads are required to replicate standard pressure .40 S&W or .45 ACP loads, then I'd sooner just get a .40 or a .45 and not have to worry about the ammo damaging the gun or otherwise wearing it out at highly accelerated rate.

That being said, I would still like to hear from some more folks, especially those who carry 9mm due to its asserted equality to .40s, complete with the specific loads, including the bullet weight, powder load, and estimated pressure, (if you handload) as well as the firearm such ammo is carried within.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I carry Federal 147gr HST standard pressure year-round in my carry gun, a Beretta PX4 Compact (3.27" barrel, FYI) and my home defense gun, a Beretta 92FS. Where I currently live, the winters typically don't get super cold, but high temps can get below freezing at times and bundling up is common. From what I've read, LE agencies that use the same load in areas that get pretty cold, including St. Louis and an agency in Minnesota (I can't remember which agency, but I want to say Minneapolis or Rochester), are satisfied with it's performance.

Then there's the Speer 124gr GDHP +P used by NYPD that's gotten good results, and it can get quite cold there. I'd say this is probably a good choice for someone who wants a little more energy for penetrating heavy winter clothing, but doesn't want too much recoil. I've only shot this in my PX4 Compact, but the recoil was not an issue.

I can't remember what load Chicago uses, but I want to say it's a 147gr load. I could be wrong, though.

My general philosophy still holds, in that I prefer bullets that are medium-to-heavy weight for caliber, so I'd be satisfied with just about any modern JHP 9mm load in the 124-147gr range, standard pressure or +P.

Also, I wouldn't say the 9mm is "equal" to .40 or .45, but I would say that based on actual shootings, any advantage the bigger calibers have over 9mm are so small as to be insignificant. For that reason, I would agree that all the service calibers perform about the same. So pick the one you like. A good, modern JHP that's reliable in your gun and that you can shoot well should perform as designed/desired, regardless of caliber.

Just my opinion.

 

[fmflorida]

As cold as it gets and as accommodating my winter attire may be, I don't plan on carrying a Beretta 92FS or a SIG P226, but something more along the lines of a S&W M&P (Shield) or a Ruger LC9s/Security 9, which I doubt are up to the task of shooting +P+ loads.
Besides, if +P+ loads are required to replicate standard pressure .40 S&W or .45 ACP loads, then I'd sooner just get a .40 or a .45 and not have to worry about the ammo damaging the gun or otherwise wearing it out at highly accelerated rate.

That being said, I would still like to hear from some more folks, especially those who carry 9mm due to its asserted equality to .40s, complete with the specific loads, including the bullet weight, powder load, and estimated pressure, (if you handload) as well as the firearm such ammo is carried within.

Just a side note, shooting +P+ rounds wont damage most guns....especially not the ones you mentioned if you shoot in moderation.

If you fire lets say 100-200 a year of your carry ammo....you likely wont damage the gun.....Now if you feel you need to shoot 1,000s of rounds of the carry ammo then yes you could damage the gun.

I know a lot of guys who practice minimally with a carry round, practice a lot with cheap range stuff and carry the good ammo.

All depends on preference.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Just a side note, shooting +P+ rounds wont damage most guns....especially not the ones you mentioned if you shoot in moderation.

If you fire lets say 100-200 a year of your carry ammo....you likely wont damage the gun.....Now if you feel you need to shoot 1,000s of rounds of the carry ammo then yes you could damage the gun.

I know a lot of guys who practice minimally with a carry round, practice a lot with cheap range stuff and carry the good ammo.

All depends on preference.

Agreed. +P or even +P+ likely won't cause any kind of catastrophic failure, but will cause accelerated wear. At the same time, you'd have to shoot A LOT of +P/+P+ ammo to notice such wear. Best precaution would be changing out recoil springs more frequently. That would probably go a long way towards mitigating such issues.

Of course, there are plenty of good self defense loads in standard pressure that I don't think it's necessary for most people to go to higher pressure loads, unless that's just their personal preference. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Echo40]

@ContinentalOp
Thanks, that's just the sort of response I'm looking for.

@fmflorida
The owners manuals included with most firearms says otherwise. In fact, I've never seen a single owner's manual for any firearm which doesn't warn against the use of +P+ ammo, citing the lack of control standards and the fact that their firearms weren't designed to handle pressures which exceed SAAMI specifications.
I know that there are a lot of folks who shoot +P+ ammo out of such firearms regardless of warnings/advisories by the manufacturer against doing so with anecdotal evidence to suggest that it's safe to do so, but personally I am not comfortable doing so.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I know that there are a lot of folks who shoot +P+ ammo out of such firearms regardless of warnings/advisories by the manufacturer against doing so with anecdotal evidence to suggest that it's safe to do so, but personally I am not comfortable doing so.

Nothing wrong with being prudent when it comes to handheld explosions.

 

[URIT]

I don't give a lot of credibility to the FBI, or other federal, state, county, or local law enforcement agencies that have their hardware and ammo decisions made by budget-driven bureaucrats.

I wouldn't want to be shot with a 9mm any more than I would a .40 S&W or .45 ACP round. That said, I carry a 3953 during warm weather months and a 4053 during cold weather months. My decision only needs to feel right for me.

 

[Chino74]

If U R worried about having adequate penetration go with a .45 Federal Train and protect round., the .45 is a HP that replicates a profile more in line w standard ball...that and a Glock 30 give U 11 rounds on tap.

 

[Boogs]

Well..

.380
9mm
.40
.45

Debate rolls on. That being said:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Scroll down, each chart is interactive and can be sorted by 5 shot average depth, 5 shot average expansion diameter, and 5 shot average muzzle velocity.

You will see the results from the testing are very interesting and may be eye-opening for some.

There are some factors obviously which keep 9mm separate from .40 and .45, etc.. however, the data points used show the performance gap may not be as large as many people believe.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Is A Carhartt Jacket Bulletproof? video by ShootingTheBull410

Except for more and heavier clothing allowing you to more easily conceal a larger pistol, up-gunning for winter is unnecessary.

You can check out a list of ammunition in 9mm, .40, and .45 that can be trusted to penetrate adequately and expand significantly at Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo.

 

[atx357]

This is a pretty easy question; the answer is already mentioned above, which is the 147 HST. The longer heavier bullet tends to track in a straight line better than the lighter shorter ones; it also penetrates barriers like auto glass better--again the longer bullet deflects less. Presumably is the same regarding bone. It opens beautifully no matter how much clothing it shoots through, and has an excellent track record. To me, easy choice.

 

[JayFramer]

It’s funny that when people claim the 9mm equal to the .40 and .45, they never seem to mention the .357 SIG.

Why? The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the stopping power of the legendary, devastating 125 grain .357 magnum hollow point. Regarded as the most effective anti-personnel handgun round in human history, New adopters of the semi-auto pistol pined for the same effectiveness.

The .357 SIG delivered.

Bottom line, it is THE single best manstopper and Law Enforcement cartridge available. Buy one and never look back. Forget about 9mm, 40, and 45.

 

[RobertJ.]

Hasn't the "this v. that" been done to death already?

1. Carry what you want.

2. Get good with it.

It's really as simple as that.

 

[ContinentalOp]

It’s funny that when people claim the 9mm equal to the .40 and .45, they never seem to mention the .357 SIG.

Why? The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the stopping power of the legendary, devastating 125 grain .357 magnum hollow point. Regarded as the most effective anti-personnel handgun round in human history, New adopters of the semi-auto pistol pined for the same effectiveness.

The .357 SIG delivered.

Bottom line, it is THE single best manstopper and Law Enforcement cartridge available. Buy one and never look back. Forget about 9mm, 40, and 45.

I didn't mention .357 Sig because the OP didn't, but I group it in with the rest of the service calibers, including .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Again, there may be some advantage to the extra power, but not enough to say it's head-and-shoulders above the rest.

I will say that .357 Sig does have a couple of advantages unrelated to its terminal effectiveness against attackers. One, it's a very flat-shooting round, so if you think you could potentially need to make a long-range shot, it might be worth considering. Two, it does very well with barrier penetration, i.e. car doors and such, so if you think that might be necessary, it might be worth considering. IIRC, these were the reasons it was adopted by Texas DPS before they switched to 9mm, I believe. And I want to say these were also part of the reasoning it was adopted by the US Secret Service and the Federal Air Marshal Service, but I could be wrong.

But as I said before, when it comes to guns in the service calibers, picking a good, modern JHP that's reliable in your gun and that you can shoot well is going to be more important than the caliber itself.

 

[gwpercle]

If that one magical 9mm load existed then we could do away with all the 45acp's and 40 S&W's and all the different 9mm loadings .
Everyone would carry the 9mm magic load .

But the truth is , it doesn't exist .

Carry whatever you can shoot well with , solid hits in vital places win the day .... misses don't count for squat .

Personally I tend to favor rounds that start with a 4 but I can do good work with a 38 special if I have to .
It's not what you shoot but how well you shoot in a gunfight .
Gary

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

NONE..........

 

[andy52]

I've thought about those sort of things before and have come to this conclusion through trial and error. The firearm I carry has to be accurate and controllable with enough energy to get the job done.

In "my" opinion +p 9mm or +p .38 ammo with good shot placement is capable of dealing with most encounters short of large four legged critters.

In smaller frame handguns .357, .40 and 45s are difficult to control in follow up shots and some just hurt to shoot.

My EDC is a 9mm Shield loaded with +p. I've shot the Shields in .40 and .45 I find them hard to control in rapid fire. Snubby .357s are just obnoxious to fire regularly.

For home defense or field carry were a larger framed gun is used just about any caliber will work as long as you can control the recoil.