Which J-Frame vs. Compact Pistol?

[mag318]

I would recommend a revolver over a semiauto for a new shooter. The revolver is either loaded or not, with no worry about is there a round in the chamber. I recently bought a new S&W Bodyguard 38 with the polymer subframe. This revolver has a great trigger and handles recoil better than my Model 60. How they reduced the felt recoil in such a light revolver amazes me. I'm sure it has something to do with the grip design and the polymer grip frame. My wife weighs 95 pounds and is very recoil sensitive, however she is very comfortable with this latest Smith. Try one and you'll be impressed.

 

[EarlFH]

One other off the wall thought, is try to find a S&W model 650, or 651, in 22 Mag. The 22 Mag. is a surprisingly good round to change some thugs mind about messing with your wife. It will stop a bobcat in its tracks, better than a 38 Special. The 650 is a 3 inch bbl, and the 651 came in both a 2 inch, and a four inch version. Unfortunately, they are both out of production, so you would have to shop around on Gunbroker, or one of the other gun auctions to find one.

EarlFH

 

[Pilgrim]

IMO the perfect solution would be a Model 631 Ladysmith in .32 magnum. All steel J frame, excellent trigger, plus she can practice with .32 long wadcutters and then move up to .32 mags for carry. If the .32 mags are still too much recoil, Magtech makes a sweet little 98 gr SJHP in .32 long. Of course, this is easier said than done because the 631's are fairly scarce and sometimes a little pricey when you do find one, but they are out there.

+1

the .32 mag packs about the same wallop as a .38 spcl but has much less felt recoil.

It's a good light gun, good trigger pull, and has the advantage of different loads if you want them.

It also comes in the 332, 432 lightweight models.

Stay with a revolver. She doesn't need to worry about racking slides or safeties if she needs to use it.

 

[686 SSR]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the 9mm Kahr K9. It weighs about the same as a steel J frame revolver, uses either 7 or 8 round magazines, is very compact, has an extremely low bore axis which reduces perceived recoil, is "dead" reliable (ours has never experienced a failure to feed) and fits small hands well. It has a very smooth double action only trigger and Crimson Trace laser grips are available.

I will say that I am considering a J-frame Model 60, but my wife really really enjoys her K9. She has small hands and shoots the Kahr more accurately than the HK P7, Sig 228, Colt Gold Cup or Kimber CDP she previously shot. (By way, she is now lusting after my 686SSR!!!)

 

[ChinaSeaSailor]

my wife has two she favors
1. Model 60-15 3" w/ 38 Golden Saber
2. Sig P239 DAK SAS 9mm (no safeties on either - your brain is the safety) - the sig has little to no recoil and light trigger pull - do not get DA/SA - the DAK is not like most DAO - it is made for carry being assembled by the custom shop

she trusts her life to either one as many do

in a panic and shoot situation many do not notice heavy trigger pull, recoil and noise

 

[blujax01]

I have a question and hope it doesn't come off as smart-alecky. I keep reading about a new shooter shouldn't have this-or-that. At what point does one graduate from "new shooter" status? Should a newbie expect to buy then discard their first firearm as a "trainer"?
My wife never liked her revolver and getting her to practice with it was a chore. Her auto fits, works, and gets good results - every time. Two trips a month to the range to stay sharp and no worries. (I on the other hand am a range rat and in there all the time).
We both realize this is no game. Our lives may depend on it. I firmly believe in the saying "You don't rise to the occasion - you fall to your highest level of training."
IMO whether it's a revolver, a semi-auto or a cannon, if you don't practice with it, you're better off without it.

 

[oldtexan]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the 9mm Kahr K9. It weighs about the same as a steel J frame revolver, uses either 7 or 8 round magazines, is very compact, has an extremely low bore axis which reduces perceived recoil, is "dead" reliable (ours has never experienced a failure to feed) and fits small hands well. It has a very smooth double action only trigger and Crimson Trace laser grips are available.

I will say that I am considering a J-frame Model 60, but my wife really really enjoys her K9. She has small hands and shoots the Kahr more accurately than the HK P7, Sig 228, Colt Gold Cup or Kimber CDP she previously shot. (By way, she is now lusting after my 686SSR!!!)

You beat me to mentioning the Kahrs. My wife has issues with racking the slide on her K9 but can rack her TP9 easily. I'd also second whoever mentioned the Walther PPS in 9mm. My wife has issues with recoil when shooting standard pressure .38s in her all-stainless 649, but the recoil of the lighter Kahr TP9 and PPS don't bother her nearly as much.

Re calibers and the instructor's opinion on those, he's not getting paid to like her choice in calibers. A locked breech .32 like a Kel Tec P32 would give her a light trigger pull, easy slide racking, light recoil, and a handy small package to carry.

 

[ColbyBruce]

I bought my daughter a S&W #331TI .32 H&R magnum. Light gun, light recoil, heavy price.

 

[sonny]

Get her an Airweight Centennial model, maybe 442 with .38 Special 158 grain. She will carry it in her purse. You can have her put on recoil glove to practice a bit with it. She doesn't need a lot of practice to point and pull the trigger. If she needs it and uses it against a perp, she won't feel any recoil. And a perp with a bullet in him will be much less interested in robbery or rape.
sonny

 

[Maine Garda]

Any thoughts about the J frame in 22
magnum? I think it's the 351...

Many potential "shootings" are thwarted at the presentation of the pistol by a person who is prepared and trained to use it. With that being said a civilian has a far different role from that of the off duty cop. Simply save your own rear end (and that of your family) then get the heck ourtof there.

So my 2 cents for what it's worth would be a 22 mag and to practice, practice, practice.

 

[Goffman]

Note that the instructor is vigorously opposed to any self-defense caliber less than 38 Special in a revolver and 9mm in a pistol. In other words, SUBJECT TO YOUR COMMENTS, 380 ACP is probably not being considered.

Frankly, it's a shame that the instructor was so anti-380 and probably filled your wife's head with a bunch of bologna horror stories about the inadequacy of the 380 ACP cartridge. Judging by what you have described, it sounds to me as if a pocket-sized 380 could be the perfect solution for your wife.

I have posted about this recently on a few other threads, but I'll repeat it here: my wife and I recently purchased a Kahr P380 for her, and it is a FANTASTIC weapon. The trigger is smooth and light, but not too light. Recoil is modest and manageable, even with defense-quality ammunition, and the pistol is comfortable to hold and "points" naturally. The pistol is slim, light (under 12 ounces), compact, and can be carried on one's person relatively easily, even under the typically form-fitting clothes of a woman. My wife took it to the range to test it out, and, brand new, the pistol had one stovepipe on the second round, and then 198 problem-free shots. By the way, Kahr warns that its pistols need a 200-round "break in" period. As she shot away in the lane next to me, I kept waiting for the string of failures, but they never came. If you can't tell from my description, I was exceedingly impressed.

Of course, everyone knows that, when it's come to "power", the 380 ACP cartridge is not a 45 ACP, but neither is the .38 Special a .44 Magnum. It's all a matter of compromise. If your wife finds the weapon manageable, possibly even mildly enjoyable, to shoot, then she will be willing to practice with it. If she practices, she is more likely to hit what she's aiming at, should she be in a situation in which hitting the target is of utmost importance. If the weapon is small and light enough, she will have it on her if she needs it. The bottomline is that it's unwise to purchase a weapon for her with which she is not comfortable, or can't or won't get comfortable due to trigger weight or recoil or whatever reason. I'd rather my wife have a sharp stick than her bare hands, and I'd rather she have a 380 ACP than a sharp stick, but, whatever she has, I want her to feel comfortable, competent, and proficient with it, and I want her to have it on her (not in a purse or locked up at home) should she need it. I want her to be able to use the weapon with confidence.

In addition, the horror stories about the 380 ACP catridge that I mentioned above are a load of hooey. Any "dud" catridge of any caliber will show unrepresentative perfomance. But, 99.999% of cartridges produced by reputable manufacturers are not duds, and any reasonably logical person will acknowledge that a 90-grain projectile travelling at 900 feet per second is going to punch a hole in just about anything not made of rock or a hard metal. The physics of it are undeniable. If one has doubts or questions about adequate penetration, good-quality FMJ or TMJ ammunition provides the answer.

Yes, yes, I know that an attacker may not be "stopped" quite as quickly with a 380-sized hole than a 45-sized hole, or whatever ammunition one wants to hold up for comparison. But, in just about any threatening situation that my paranoid imagination can produce, the appearance of a pistol in the hand of the potential victim is a game changer (as one poster alluded to above), and three or four shots are a game ender, whether the game ends with an attacker in retreat or an attacker who needs immediate medical attention.

In sum, as suggested by others, I would recommend reducing concern about caliber and increasing concern about finding a weapon with which she will become proficient and comfortable. If you have two or three choices with which she will become proficient and comfortable, choose the largest caliber of the bunch. Finally, do not rule out the 380 ACP. Regardless of the instructor's biases, the pocket-sized 380 ACP is a nice compromise between power, portability, and concealability. Prior to our recent purchase, even my wife scoffed a bit about the "weak" 380 ACP, but she's since changed her tune.

 

[Phoenix357]

I would recommend a Model 60 LS (Lady Smith). All steel, 2", with a slightly lighter trigger pull. Run .38 Special with a 158 gr. bullet for a little softer recoil...

I have to agree with Satori. I've got the M60 .357 w/5" barrel. Although a bit longer, the thing I found with this revolver is the shape of the grip seems to have the recoil smoothly roll up and out away from the back of the hand and wrist.

I was a bit concerned when I saw the grips, being so small. I was going to replace them till I actually fired a couple of boxes of 158 gr. .357 JHPs through her; excellent!

And w/the shorter barrels running .38s through one of these M60s (to include those smaller grips for her hands) I would think that she would have no problem.

I am definitely not an expert. But I know the M60 is one she should at least test fire and see what she thinks.

Pray this helps.

 

[UGlide]

I am the OP. WOW ... a lot of responses. I’m very grateful for your effort. As you probably noticed, the advice varied greatly. You understand why this is so difficult. Most people recommended the J-frame revolver over the pistol for various reasons with which I agree (simplicity, safety, ability to shoot through a jacket pocket or a purse if necessary, concealability, no ‘limp wrist’ concern). Several countered this with the fact that a compact pistol (e.g., Kahr or M&P9c) would be more comfortable to shoot, and if so, my wife would be more inclined to practice, thus overcoming some of the other concerns mentioned – also a view I agree with.

Regarding recoil, your comments seemed to imply lowest-to-highest recoil as follows (assuming the same sized J-frame alternatives -- PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG HERE …THIS IS IMPORTANT TO ME): This answered a principle question I had. It is very relevant for my wife’s situation.
1. 9mm compact pistol – least recoil because the recoil is absorbed by the spring and the slide
2. J-frame stainless steel .357 (shooting 38 Special) – because it is heavy
3. J-frame stainless steel 38 Special – because heavier than Airweight
4. J-frame Airweight – most recoil because lightest

Several of you highly recommended models that happened to have an exposed hammer. I am aware of one female realtor who was attacked and she had such a gun in her purse. The attacker beat her to a pulp so that he could rape her. Simultaneously, the female was attempting, but failing, to withdraw the gun from her purse. The hammer was snagged inside the purse. She eventually got the gun out and the attacker saw it and ran before she got a shot off. Apparently she was too hurt and dazed to fire. Conclusion: NO HAMMER.

Several of you suggested also having a lower caliber to be sure she can handle it or as a second gun for practice purposes because ammo is cheaper and there is less noise and recoil. I agree that some shooting skills can be developed/maintained and, especially for a new female shooter, she might be inclined to practice more often. I may follow this advice but use it only for her initial training. I would still mover her up to a bigger caliber. In other words, I’d be buying 2 guns for her.

Please note she will not be shooting for the fun of it (plinking or target practice). Target practice and defensive shooting practice are not the same. I am of the school of thought that, for self-defense purposes, you should practice as you would actually fight. In other words, develop actions/reactions that are almost automatic … develop muscle memory. I and her trainer will practice actual combat movement techniques under various scenarios and conditions. We will not be plinking. If/when my wife is attacked, she will act/react without panic or confusion …I hope.

THANKS AGAIN.

 

[Elmer]

There's a lot of good advice in this thread, but I'll add my 2 cents.

I've seen plenty of well trained, experienced shooters have issues and malfunctions with the small pocket pistols. Because they are small and "cute", many assume they are easy to shoot well, when in fact they are among the most difficult guns to shoot.

Get a 2" .38, in either steel or alloy, (not the titanium cylinder model). Buy some factory 148 grain match wadcutters. They are easy to shoot, yet will outperform many rounds sold for purpose of self defense.

 

[BarbC]

I am aware of one female realtor who was attacked and she had such a gun in her purse. The attacker beat her to a pulp so that he could rape her. Simultaneously, the female was attempting, but failing, to withdraw the gun from her purse. The hammer was snagged inside the purse. She eventually got the gun out and the attacker saw it and ran before she got a shot off. Apparently she was too hurt and dazed to fire. Conclusion: NO HAMMER.

See -- my conclusion is NO PURSE CARRY.

It doesn't matter what I carry, from my .380 KelTec to my .45 M&P compact - it is ON my body and instantly accessible.

 

[redhawk444]

Get her a .25 ACP and tell her to shoot for the knees.

On a more serious note, a .38 Special loaded with a 110 grain bullet at ~ 900 fps is a very pleasant load to shoot and will be more effective than a .380.....not knocking the 380, because it will do too.

The problem with .380s is that unless you buy one that operates on the locked breech principle, the recoil is worst than the typical 9MM. So if recoil is a factor, be careful what you buy in a .380. In addition to that, the recoil spring in the non locked breech 380s is a lot stiffer and that makes racking the slide a little problematic for a person who has weak hands. Add the potential for feeding/ejection problems brought about by 'limp wristing' and I would definately opt for something on the order of a Smith 442 with that 110 grain loading.

 

[ColbyBruce]

UGlide, the unfortunate victim you write about should of fired her exposed hammer revolver right through her purse rather than try to draw it. That is one reason to choose a revolver over a semi-auto pistol. Try to have an open mind concerning this purchase for your wife, as there are both pros and cons to most every option; nothing will be absolutely perfect.

If you are near Atlanta I will be glad to let the two of you try a few different handguns.

 

[wheelgun73]

stick with the revolver

I have a .32 H&R mangum -->a 331 Titanium J-frame. With buffalo bore's new .32 H&R magnum +P 100 grain Hornady XTP load it is very formidable.

HEAVY 32 H&R MAG. +P

1300 fps and 375 ft-lbs out of a 4 inch barrel and around 1115 fps out of my 2 inch j frame--280 ft-lbs range. It penetrates 17 inches in ballistic gelatin...(I chronographed and tested it). The felt recoil is less than a 38 special! lol I prefer this 331 Ti (with 100 grain Buffalo Bore +P's) for carry and I have a 1911, 8 shot .357 magnum, a Sig .40, a couple 44 specials, etc....You cannot beat the reliability and simplicity of a revolver. No jams, if you have a FTF just pull the trigger again.
(in general)
New shooter + female + semi-auto=possible disasterous consequences

Unless she is going into a crack house, 99% of self defense situations only 2 rounds are fired. J-frame, Ruger SP101, Ruger LCR, etc....or the 331 Ti that ColbyBruce bought his daughter (excellent choice!)

"Wheel guns are REAL guns"