Which J-Frame vs. Compact Pistol?

[UGlide]

S&W EXPERTS PLEASE HELP – this has been difficult to resolve. I’m new to this forum; this is my first post; I’m not new to guns in general, but I do not own any of the handguns described below. I’m coming to the ‘experts’ (those with S&W experience) for help with my wife’s selection of a CCW handgun for her (note I said my wife’s selection, not my selection …although she might listen to you).

THE BACKGROUND ON HER
My wife is a realtor; had some close calls being alone with unsavory characters; has been a victim; petite with a small frame, small bones, and SMALL HANDS; right handed; right wrist somewhat damaged from auto accident long ago, but it is functional ~80%; not disciplined enough to learn to shoot and to practice with her left (weak) hand; just got her CCW; not an experienced shooter (but I can help with that once she gets her own gun).

J-FRAME .38 SPECIAL
About a year ago she once shot someone else’s J-frame S&W Model 642 (15 oz. Airweight .38 Special), 1.875” barrel, unaltered (HEAVY) trigger, but she did not like the recoil and the trigger pull was very difficult for her. To be fair, she only shot about 6 rounds and did not (still does not) have experience with the recoil and sound of guns. I’m guessing, but it seemed to me at that time the trigger pull was 13-15 pounds – very heavy. SUBJECT TO YOUR COMMENTS, I am uncertain if she could get used to the recoil and trigger if she owned this model and practiced with it. These Airweight guns are safe and lightweight for daily CCW carry, but the felt recoil might be harsh. If I (she) got this gun, I know it would need a trigger job (springs/polishing) to lighten the pull, but I have no idea how much lighter the pull would be. I called a gunsmith and he said my guess about the trigger 13-15 lb. pull was about right and that his trigger job would get the pull down to 7-8 lbs. IS THIS ABOUT RIGHT TO YOU?

MAYBE YOU FOLKS HAVE SOME INSIGHT ABOUT THE EXPECTED BENEFITS OF A TRIGGER JOB (INCLUDING CHANGING SPRINGS) ON THIS J-FRAME AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, A COMPARISON OF FELT RECOIL WITH THE GUNS DESCRIBED BELOW.

J-FRAME .357
She recently hired a shooting instructor who let her use his J-frame S&W Model 640 (23 oz. stainless steel 357 Magnum) shooting 38 Special loads. As many of you know, it is often much easier on everybody if someone other than a spouse or family member is teaching. If you are married, you know what I mean. The recoil did not bother her as much as the heavy trigger. She only shot 9 rounds before giving up and switching to a 22 caliber revolver – the trigger pull was too heavy on the Model 640. The instructor did not have a J-Frame .38 Special Airweight (such as a Model 642) or a pistol for her to try/compare.

Note that the instructor is vigorously opposed to any self-defense caliber less than 38 Special in a revolver and 9mm in a pistol. In other words, SUBJECT TO YOUR COMMENTS, 380 ACP is probably not being considered.

DO YOU EXPERIENCED FOLKS THINK THAT THE HEAVIER WEIGHT (23 oz. 640 vs. 15 oz. 642) HAD A SIGNIFICANT RECOIL BENEFIT? OR PERHAPS WAS SHE PROBABLY JUST MORE RELAXED IN THE PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENT WITH AN INSTRUCTOR? She could not answer this question because she could not simultaneously compare the recoil between the two guns. Maybe you ‘experts’ have experience with this question.

S&W M&P9c
At a local gun store, my wife and I examined a M&P9c, S&W’s most compact 9mm pistol. The gun fit her hand and she was able to rack the slide. Of course, the trigger pull is much easier than any revolver. The weight of the gun (per the S&W website) is 21.7 oz. (versus the 15 oz. and 23 oz. of the guns above). I know the concerns about safety (e.g., the straight index finger off the trigger, the need for a holster to cover the trigger, training/practice, etc.) and that a revolver is generally safer than a pistol, particularly if the person does not practice. I also know the issues about ‘limp wristing’ a pistol –also a training issue.

MY QUESTION FOR YOU IS ABOUT FELT RECOIL – WHETHER THIS 9mm PISTOL WILL HAVE A FELT RECOIL LESS THAN THE 23 OZ. MODEL 640 (shooting 38 Special loads, not .357). My assumption is that the recoil on this 9mm pistol would be greater than the Model 642 and less than the Model 640, but I do not have actual experience with these guns.

Where I live there are no ranges that rent guns, therefore, I'm looking to you for help.

Thanks for your patience, but I thought it would be helpful to be thorough in providing all the background. Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[NE450No2]

Here is what I would recommend.

For her first handgun I would get her a 2" 5 shot S&W in 38 Special.

Since she will most likely carry it in her purse, and she had a wrist injury, I would get her a steel framed Bodyguard, or a Centennial.

The steel framed guns have a lot less recoil.

My wife carries a Centennial Airweight as her everyday carry, but she carries a 44 Mag in the field. She has killed a bunch of snakes with it here on our place with shotshells, so she gets a bunch of practice...

But for your wife I would get the steel framed gun. I would have her practice with factory wadcutters, and if it is the most powerful ammo she wants to shoot i would have her carry them for protuction as well.

If you are "flush" with money you can get her a 2" S&W Mod 34, 22LR for practice.

It will pay for itself in a thousand rounds or so. And you will have a backup gun for her as well.

 

[007BondJamesBond007]

I got the 642ct for my wife. The gun had a problem with the cylinder not indexing and had to go back to S & W for repair. I asked if they can also lighten the trigger pull on it . They said no there is nothing they can do with it. Got the gun back and they replaced the trigger group and fixed the indexing problem. Trigger was much better, smoother, but still heavy. The gun is still not pleasant to shoot and with +p even worse recoil. My wife know it is a SNTF gun and not a target gun so she will put up with the recoil. The Crimson Trace is a +.

As for the 9mm M & P the recoil is a more easily manageable. If she can handle the slide and practice with the gun she will do ok with it. This also has the Crimson Trace option. I would let her try both to see what she likes. The key here is practice, practice, practice.

 

[satori59]

I would recommend a Model 60 LS (Lady Smith). All steel, 2", with a slightly lighter trigger pull. Run .38 Special with a 158 gr. bullet for a little softer recoil...

 

[Corpsman]

The S&W M60 Stainless is a great CCW revolver. Even comes with rosewood grips, called the "Lady Smith". Will shoot 357's, but 38+P would probably be better load for your wife. A CS9 in stainless would be a good little pistol, as long as she can operate the slide. Light weight,aluminum frame, short barrel, easily concealed. The revolver is a little easier to operate under stress, however. I prefer stainless steel for any CCW as rust is less of a problem.I have an M60, but did have to send it back as the trigger kept sticking. S&W will take care of it under warranny. Hope this helps. But key to any CCW is PRACTICE and becoming familar with the weapon. Good luck --------

 

[Green Frog]

Having carried no concealed weapons on a regular basis, but having shot most of the pistols and revolvers extensively, and having been a firearms instructor, I would agree that a M-60 with perhaps a 3" barrel and a "back-up" understudy in .22 lr would be a logical choice for you/her.

Then get her out shooting the .22 a lot until she is very comfortable with a revolver, ANY revolver. She could even carry the .22 as her CCW for a while... a .22 in the hand that she will be able to shoot is far superior to a more powerful .38 that she is afraid of or hesitant to shoot, and that's a fact.

Just having a weapon in her bag is not a help, she will have a false sense of security that will probably result in her losing it if she is not willing and ready to use whatever she pulls out, WITHOUT HESITATION. To summarize, a lot of training and familiarization is as important or more so than simply choice of weapon. Just my $.02, YMMV!

the Green Frog

 

[Dream to Dream]

MY QUESTION FOR YOU IS ABOUT FELT RECOIL – WHETHER THIS 9mm PISTOL WILL HAVE A FELT RECOIL LESS THAN THE 23 OZ. MODEL 640 (shooting 38 Special loads, not .357). My assumption is that the recoil on this 9mm pistol would be greater than the Model 642 and less than the Model 640, but I do not have actual experience with these guns.

Actually, one of the nice things about semi-automatics is that the motion of the slide in response to firing eats some of the recoil. A heavy steel J-frame doesn't kick as much as an Airweight, but I still find semi-autos more comfortable to shoot.

If your wife is comfortable working the slide on the M&P9c and the gun fits her hand well, you might have a winner, but the next consideration is how she would carry it. Rummaging in a purse to find your gun is not the most quick or efficient carry method, so she might want to find a gun that she can carry on her body with a reasonable amount of comfort.

If the M&P9c would be too bulky for carry on the body, another option is looking at a slimmer 9mm pistol. If you wanted to stick with Smith & Wesson or related companies, I'd strongly suggest looking at either a single-stack 3rd Generation S&W pistol or a Walther PPS.

A single-stack 3rd-Gen 9mm S&W, such as the Model 3913 LadySmith, would be slimmer and overall smaller than an M&P9c but still possess enough weight to absorb recoil. For an even slimmer firearm, the Walther PPS gives roughly the same capacity in a lighter pack, and unlike the .380 PPK, the PPS is chambered in 9mm or .40 S&W. I've looked at the PPS in the store... they're slightly over 1" thick, nicely shaped, and have great sights on them, but the magazines are mighty expensive. Of these two guns, the 3913 would likely be more ergonomic, but it's hard to beat the profile of the PPS for concealment.

However, don't take it that I'm poo-pooing a J-frame. They're excellent guns as well. Heck, I've got one on my hip now. But for day-to-day carry, my M&P9c soaks up recoil much better and I squeeze far better groups out of it than I do with a J-frame. Perhaps your wife would find the same.

 

[jimmyj]

S&W "J" Frame Hammerless .32cal. with action job
S&W "J" Frame 640 .38spl with action job- use factory wadcutters ammo

My Wife and Daughter use S&W Model 642s with Barami Grips and using W-W standard velocity silvertips.

 

[Marshal Tom]

After going through several small semi autos, my wife settled on a model 60LS and really likes it. We load it with the short barrel .38 Gold Dots. We also put rubber grips on it that cover the back strap to assist with recoil. She really likes it now. Good size, weight for recoil reduction etc. I would also agree with the .22 suggestions above until she is more comfortable with carrying and shooting her firearm. Having a .22 cal with her is better than leaving something else at home because she is not comfortable with it or not able to operate it.

T

 

[PMRet]

IMO the perfect solution would be a Model 631 Ladysmith in .32 magnum. All steel J frame, excellent trigger, plus she can practice with .32 long wadcutters and then move up to .32 mags for carry. If the .32 mags are still too much recoil, Magtech makes a sweet little 98 gr SJHP in .32 long. Of course, this is easier said than done because the 631's are fairly scarce and sometimes a little pricey when you do find one, but they are out there.

 

[David Sinko]

A J Frame is NOT a good gun for a new shooter, especially one with wrist problems. The mainspring should be kept as strong as possible. Depending on the individual revolver you might be able to reduce the pull weight somewhat, but 7-8 lbs. seems too light for complete reliability with all ammo.

I would never recommend off body carry to anybody. I feel that the gun must be kept on your person at all times. Purse carry has far too many risks.

As much as I now like J Frames, they are not for everybody and this is one of those few instances where she'd be better served with an auto. I'll never pay a dime for any S&W auto so my choice would be some kind of small Glock.

Dave Sinko

 

[CWO USN]

Situations that might require the use of deadly force will usually happen very quickly and with adrenalin pumping full tango. You have to consider that firing a semi-auto pistol requires that the slide be free of any obstructions to properly cycle for follow-up shots. This is where a revolver shines over the pistol. The revolver can be fired "concealed" from let's say a jacket pocket or carry-purse. The Centennial models not only keep lint and debris from building up but can be presented from a concealed position. An appropriately designed handbag, purse or briefcase (sturdy carrying strap positioned correctly across the turso) comes in handy when the defender feels threatened. The defender can be at the ready, firing hand inside jacket pocket, purse, etc. on the gun at the ready. Other issues you need to consider are the legal and liability aspects of firearms self-defense (use of deadly force). That in itself is a whole different topic. Browse the conceal-carry forum for more research on the subject. Finally, practice..practice..practice. Practice shooting what you plan to carry or use in self-defense if the need arises. Practice IMHO also means using the same ammo you load your conceal firearm with.

 

[ENGINE18]

A j-frame trigger can be lighnened a bit. Also, 148gr wadcutters have been recommended by some folks here as a very light-recoiling alternative to heavier loads, plus they are very accurate, even out of the J-frames.

I'll admit to a trigger job on my 638, which also carries two 148WC rounds for the first two shots.

 

[blujax01]

I'm no expert, but... I bought my wife a J-Frame with a 3" barrel. It has less recoil than a snubbie but she still hated the trigger pull. Our range does offer quite a few rentals. We went through CCW class and took weekly trips to the range. And after checking out a half dozen options including Glock, Sig Sauer and Kimber, she bought the M&P9C w/ Crimson Trace Grips. While I agree with most males on the concept of carrying on-body rather than off, most females will opt for the purse. Check out CoronadoLeather.com Their purses seem to be outrageously expensive enough to be of interest.

 

[Model_60]

J-frames and off body carry.

One drawback to the current J-frames is that the main spring is of the coil variety, and yes, they are strong...

My lady friend has a 3" model 36; she is 4'10" and 100 lbs. The selection was made years ago by her Dad, a retired Marine Corps. Sargent Major. She found the double action trigger pull to be too strong, so her father drilled her on single action rapid fire. She is very competent with her J-frame...

I recently gave her one of those concealed carry "day planners" from Dillon, which would be perfectly in character for the OP's real estate agent wife.

Personally, I would recommend a Model 60 with a 3" barrel, for its additional sight radius, and full length extractor. My model 60-15 is as accurate as my 686+ and I keep it loaded with 135 Gr. Speer 38 Spl. Gold Dots for short barrels. The additional weight of the stainless .357 J-frame helps absorb recoil.

Lastly, one thing to remember about Glocks is that save the toggle piece of the trigger, there is no safely... Our local Sheriff's department moved away from Glocks for that reason, as a couple of Deputies shot themselves accidentally...

I wish the OP and his wife success in finding a pistol, or revolver which meets her needs. If a gun in not pleasant to shoot, she will not practice; thus, making the right choice is imperative.

 

[H Richard]

A quality trigger job, that remains 100% reliable can be done on a J Frame. The Model 60/640, all steel, with appropriate grips. The weight and the "grips" are the key to less felt recoil. The grips must fit her hand, and the fuller the better as it spreads out the recoil. With a factory main spring, and a 13 or 14 lb. rebound spring and correctly done stoning inside the trigger will feel much lighter, and you still have the original mainspring for reliability. With the lighter weight bullets, 130 gr. short barrel loads, or 110 gr. will help more with the recoil. When she practices, make sure she has excellent ear protection, as an inexperienced shooter will perceive higher recoil with loud noises.

Good luck in your selection. The 32 magnum may also be an alternative.

 

[BarbC]

A 60LS is just about the perfect gun. The trigger pull is lighter than a traditional J frame and the curve of the butt brings the trigger in closer for small hands. It's light and small enough to carry without feeling unduly burdened but large enough to absorb recoil. I brought one to a Women on Target class and had put Pachmayr Compacs on it. Almost all women agreed it was their favorite.

The plus side of a revolver is that she would not have to worry about limp-wrist jams that can easily happen with a semi-auto.

While a semi-auto is somewhat lighter and slimmer to carry, I have often carried the 60LS 2" in an appendix-side IWB (Bianchi Pro 100) under a blazer or sweater, and have also carried it easily in a cross-draw (DeSantis Sky Cop) while driving long distances.

The new CT laser grips are also more cushioned than they used to be and a very good asset for a concealed revolver.

PS - that's the gun in my avatar

 

[bsms]

I use a Model 60 Lady Smith. The trigger is about as light and smooth as any revolver I've seen. With Pachmayr Compact grips, I can easily shoot 357 loads, but I carry it with the original wood grips - conceals nicer, but I'm a guy so I'm carrying it in my pants pocket or an IWB holster.

If she wants the option of shooting from inside a purse or pocket, then the hammerless J-frames in steel ought to do it. If she doesn't like 38+P, try regular 38 specials...and if you go with a 3" Model 60, the recoil shouldn't be much more than some 22s.

I figure a self defense shooting is likely to be at ranges <10', so I actually don't think a lot of practice shooting is required. A comfortable draw or access to shooting inside the pocket practiced (empty!) is probably more important. As much as I like my M60LS, I'd recommend hammerless - a 640.

BTW - I do practice shooting...for fun. But a person can shoot a J-frame at 5 feet without using sights or needing hours of practice.

Also - if she carries in a purse or where weight isn't a big issue, consider a Model 64 - 38 sp, 4 inch barrel, weighs 36 oz, comfortable for small hands with the small service grips, and it ought to be about as smooth a trigger and as light in recoil as one gets. I've started carrying a 3" 686 SOMETIMES, but I'm not that thrilled with carrying a fanny pack, and the weight is a lot to carry on a belt all day. But my daughter (5'2"/110 lbs) carries one daily in her purse...sometimes it is better to carry a bit more and feel better about shooting.

 

[JC4013]

I'll make this short: Anyone who is not going to spend significant time practicing all the necessary drills to resolve various problems that can occur with an auto should use a revolver; Any of the varients will work, but steel frames have some real advantages; Managing recoil is a matter of training, technique and practice; A revolver can handle light loades and still function reliably, but an auto may not because it has to have a certain amount of recoil to make the swlide function; Off body carry is not optimal, but a purse designed for carry or a day planner properly designed gives good service. But if you're going that route, moving up to a J-frame might be an option that would reduce recoil, allow heavier loads, better trigger pull and sight radius. A revolver has one advantage an auto does not: In a pinch you can five it through a coat pocket, a pants pocket (although that could be most interesting in several ways) or from the concealment pocket of a purse. You might get the first shot off with am auto, but then it'll jam because it'll get tangled up in the clothes when the slide cycles. Just my humble opinion and the advice is probably worth about what you're paying for it.

 

[los]

Why not just a can of Mace..?