Which Model 3 variant?

[Carolinas]

We have what I believe to be a smith and Wesson model 3 2nd American that was passed down a few generations but no provenance came with it. I would say by the serial number 17154 on the butt beside the lanyard ring. The barrel is shorter I haven’t had a chance to measure anything. I was hoping to get some information as to what length cylinder aligns with which cartridge.

 

[Carolinas]

Smith and Wesson model no 3 - Album on Imgur

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


By the time S&W was making the No.3, 2nd model, the length of
the cylinder was pretty well fixed at 1.420". All three .44 calibers
used in the No. 3 used the same length cylinder. The .44 Henry
was a rim fire and the frame and hammer were different. There-
fore it is pretty easy to spot one. The .44 S&W American and
Russian cartridges differed in diameter but were the same
length (+/- a few thousandths). The American had chambers
around .446" to .447" and the Russian had chambers around
.461" to 462". Also, the American had chambers that were
bored straight through with one diameter. The Russian cham-
ber show a distinctive step towards the front of the cylinder.

Just to be inclusive, the .44 Henry chambers were .450" to
.452"


Cheers!
Webb

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum! I am guessing you have what looks like a rare barrel length Model 3 44 American, Second Model. A short barrel 44 Russian would be very rare indeed. This model was produced for only 3 years, from serial numbers 8000 to 32800. Your serial number would likely have shipped in 1873. Roy Jinks book states that Normal length of barrel was 8", but a few are known to have from 5.5", 6", 6.5", and 7" barrels. I would suggest that you get a historical letter due to its rarity.

The factory always centered the barrel address/patent dates stamp between the front sight and the front of the top strap. If an example was a cut barrel variety, that stamp would be partially cut where the front sight would be reset. I believe that is a factory barrel. Let us know the barrel length from the muzzle to the front of the cylinder?

 

[iby]

I agree that the barrel may be un altered.
A picture of the inside of the chambers would identify the caliber

 

[Carolinas]

I thought I added pictures of the cylinder straight down. Here is a few of the cylinders.

Smith and Wesson model 3 cylinder - Album on Imgur

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


After reviewing your pics, I would say you have a S&W No.3
American model. From what I can see, It is a 2nd Model but
the trigger doesn't look like the later version (that used the
trigger to control the cylinder stop).

I don't think this is a "Russian" model because the stamping
along the top rib doesn't have either the "RUSSIAN MODEL"
or the "REISSUE" stamp.

Being an No.3 American model, it should be in .44 S&W Amer-
ican


Cheers!
Webb

 

[iby]

It is surely an American in 44 American cal

 

[glowe]

The image of the cylinder is poor, but there is something in the chambers?? If you look at the enlarged image, there is a definite ring visible, but cannot tell if it is a step or just powder burn line? However, without the the top rib being stamped in Cyrillic or with a Reissue stamp, I still am thinking American. Please measure the barrel length.

 

[BMur]

Matching assembly numbers.

Need to establish a baseline.
The centered barrel address stamp strongly supports the original barrel length.
No RUSSIAN MODEL stamped on the barrel strongly supports a 44 American caliber.

The lanyard ring is found a lot on the first Model Russian since it was a war/cavalry weapon by design.

We need the OP to provide And prove assembly numbers match or we could have a Russian frame mated to an American bbl/cylinder.

Assembly numbers are on the back of cylinder, barrel flat, bottom of latch and frame under grip. DO THEY ALL MATCH.?

I’ve seen quite a few put togethers in this model.

I have a 1st Model 44 Russian with original 6” bbl and lanyard ring that matches and it’s close to that serial number range.

What is also interesting to me is the center fire insert on the recoil shield.

Murph

 

[Carolinas]

The 6 gun is at my parents home, I’ll get better quality photos this weekend when I visit for a quail hunt. My dad did the best with his phone and not even probably being able to see the small assembly markings, he did measure the barrel and said it was 6” from tip to cylinder. I’ll take the grips off as well and check everything out and get some measurements with my caliper tonight. I really appreciate everyone’s expertise, I read hundreds of forum posts and wasn’t sure if I would ever find a one to one example.

 

[glowe]

. . . he did measure the barrel and said it was 6” from tip to cylinder . . .

That is a good thing. It matches one of the barrel lengths from the factory. Many homemade hacksaw and gunsmiths jobs from the era did not care about where they cut their barrels. I will mention again that a factory letter is a very good idea for the gun.

 

[Carolinas]

I have the letter template just need to finish it and mail it, I know it’ll be a while but something to look forward to.

 

[BMur]

Letter

I’d hold off on the letter until you confirm matching numbers.
You have to determine which model you have first.
The 1st model Russian contract was large and generated a lot ( thousands) of rejected parts.
Also a close up of one of your Dads excellent photos seems to reveal a number on the cylinder.
Most Americans had a letter then 2 numbers.
The 3 yellow arrows is where the numbers/ letters are found. That’s where you need to look.
The last assembly number is under the grip frame usually towards the toe.
What would also help a ton is if you could try to chamber a 44 Russian, 44 Special, or 44 Mag into the cylinder. If it’s an American cylinder those rounds WILL NOT CHAMBER. If it’s a Russian they will slide right in.

Murph

 

[BMur]

First Model Russian

Here is my 6” bbl 1st Model Russian. All matching with lanyard ring less that 1000 away from yours.

Murph

 

[glowe]

There are 4 locations to find the assembly number for the gun. It appears they are 3 digit numbers. You might need a toothbrush or brass bore brush to clean the frame area around the top latch.

1 - on the frame, on either side or both sides of the top latch. Sometimes half the assembly number is found on the left side and the rest on the right side.

2 - on the bottom of the top latch.

3 - on the rear of the cylinder

4 - under the right stock on the butt-frame.

 

[Carolinas]

Well bad news. After removing the grips, A 437 assembly number matches only the latch. The barrel assembly frame shows A 357. The cylinder shows 750 and it does have the ridge or step towards the end. I found one of the bullets that was stuck in it and it was 44 s&w umc.

 

[Carolinas]

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

 

[BMur]

Non matching

Amazing assembly.
I know you’re disappointed but to be perfectly honest here there is more to the story.
I’ve seen several of these now.
Typically the collector shrugs and says Oh well it’s a put together.

However,
these were part of a Russian Military contract of which many parts remained due to their inspection and rejection from Russian inspectors.
Because of these remaining parts for some reason these miss matched examples are showing up in numbers.
It’s impossible to determine their origin without more study.

Without more research we are left to guess but I suspect they were assembled and sold to the Commercial Market by a Major Distributor who acquired leftover parts some years after the model was discontinued. Distributors did this a lot. Smith & Wesson would also purge parts when a new model was introduced.

So there is history to these examples and because it has I believe a factory original 6” barrel it does have value. I like it. I would call it a late contract sale of leftover parts to some Distributor for Commercial sale. It’s also possible that an employee purchased it cheap as assembled.

Murph

 

[Carolinas]

I can’t thank you enough for your insight. My dad and I were tossing around ideas and it’s just no way to tell, it is fun to think two guys in the west were trading parts or broke something and the local gunsmith swapped it out. This one doesn’t lock up tight the latch is a little loose. All the metal looks to be patinaed fairly equally all over but it’s still a cool heirloom. I’ll end up getting a display case for it and enjoying it as a piece of art need a reproduction box of bullets for show..