Which S&W .357? 66/686/620

[.357magger]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, but it's only if you cock it very slowly it happens.

Then I'd walk. Or the seller would have to drop trou with regards to pricing because some repairs are in order imo. And this brings me to a second question for you to consider. You say that this happens, "only if you cock it slowly". How do you know that it's also not happening in DA mode?

Think about it this way. At the moment of firing, when the cylinder is "locked", it should be aligned with the barrel throat (the portion protruding back thru the frame) so that when the bullet leaves the cylinder, it "jumps" across the opening, into the barrel, and away it goes.

And if it's not "locked" and the cylinder is out of alignment? Well, just think about how good your shooting glasses are, or whether you'd like to be called Stumpy. In short, something ain't a right hereabouts. At a minimum, in firing, I'll bet that you'd get what they call "lead spitting", which is minute shavings splattering the topstrap and/or your off hand if it's near the cylinder gap. At worse, the frame gets chopped in half, rather explosively, and it takes your hand with it.

It should be solidly locked. End of story imo.

 

[BA223]

I'm a huge fan of the 686's. But you should go with whichever one makes you smile. If you have the option...get BOTH.

 

[Decker]

One possible negative point though. I haven't got much revolver experience, but it seemed to have a slight timing/lock issue. Does this sound like a problem I should walk away from?

Revolvers are mechanical devices that rely on the proper operation of it's interconnecting moving parts.
Any and/or all revolvers will at some point wear and go out of time. It is not a big deal.
But, there really shouldn't be a such a thing as a "slight" timing issue. It's in time or it's not, and I wouldn't shoot it if you suspect that it's out of time.

Having said all that, a high quality revolver is easily put back into time by a competant gunsmith, so I would not pass on that 66 for such a trivial problem.
On the other hand, if you show the seller that the revolver will need some work, then that should be a great bargaining point for a lower price.
Once reworked, that 66 will again be a pistol that will shoot in "brand new" form.

Short story; I was offered a stainless Python that looked brand new, but the owner had the attitude that it was "junk" because it was clearly out of time.
So I "reluctantly" took it off his hands for the "outrageous" price of $400. I then sent it off to Colt where they charged me $85 for a complete going through, and I ended up with a super nice stainless Python for a fraction of it's actual value.

If the owner of that 66 won't negotiate a lesser price even if he knows it needs some work, then go ahead and walk away from the deal.

 

[S&W-DK]

Good point about firing in double action, I hadn't thought about that! Safety considerations are of course paramount, I have no intention of risking either my own or anyone else's fingers, eyes, or whatever!

Unfortunately I don't have the option of sending it to Smith & Wesson for repair, but there is a gunsmith not too far away who does pistol and revolver repairs (most of them here in Denmark seem to only do rifle and shotgun repairs).

 

[scooter123]

A few notes on testing for carry up.

One is that when doing this test it's IMPORTANT to insert some fired casings into the cylinder. The fit between the extractor and the cylinder itself can be a bit "loose" and inserting casings in the cylinder can many times provide a cure for a carry up problem by putting the extractor into proper registration with the cylinder. Ideally one should actually use unfired casings because they won't be slightly expanded from firing but using live rounds for this test isn't safe and many do not have access to unprimed and unfired casings. I can't stress this enough, I have NEVER handled a 6 shot S&W that would carryup properly with an empty cylinder at every position. Brand spanking new or well used, there is enough slop between the extractor to cause a failure in carry up if casings aren't inserted into the cylinder. BTW, the 7 shooters will normally pass because the hand passes off the ratchet so much earlier in the cocking cycle.

Second, this test should be done without putting any drag on the cylinder. On a 6 shot S&W dragging the cylinder when testing for carry up will result in a near 100% failure rate, these are not 5000 dollar Korth revolvers, these are 600 dollar Combat revolvers. As a result they have clearances built into them to provide a bit of a margin to allow for proper function when not properly cleaned.

Third point, very slight carry up issues are NOT the safety hazard that has been stated previously. If the bullet is within the confines of the forcing cone when the gun fires it will carry the cylinder into lock as it bridges between the cylinder and forcing cone. Worst case it can cause increased wear to the stop by causing the gun to "slam" into lock. Next step down as the carryup gets worse is that you may start shaving bullets and have spitting issues from the B/C gap. While this isn't good for the frame or the forcing cone, it's not really an immediate safety hazard because the particles emitted are to small to do anything more than sting slightly. As for poor timing causing the gun to blow up, I've never heard of that happening, however I have seen the results of double and triple charged ammo blowing revolvers up and in those cases the shooter was surprizingly relatively uninjured. When a cylinder bursts, it normally blows the debris straight up, so in most cases the injury is a bruised hand and some small cuts to the face. By design, when used in sighted fire revolvers are actually pretty safe even when they blow apart violently.

Fourth, I've noticed that quite often pulling the trigger will "nudge" the cylinder into lock when it fails slightly in carry up during cocking. As for why, it's because the hand is actually mounted to the trigger, not the hammer. This means that just a tiny bit of trigger movement is enough to complete the carry up. Just something to consider, carry up isn't really completed until the complete cycle to fire is finished, which means that pulling the trigger is part of that cycle.

Finally, I think the carry up is somewhat over emphacized. The simple truth is that we don't operate these guns at these super slow motion rates and if the gun carrys up at a 1/2 normal rate for cocking or firing in double action I don't worry about it. Quite simply, the intertia of the cylinder will act to carry the cylinder into lock if it's moving at any speed approaching normal. IMO carry up problems need addressing when they start showing up at 1/4 to 1/2 speed, if they fall a hair short in super slow motion I don't think it's at the point where it needs to be corrected.

 

[M2MikeGolf]

DK,

You've had some good advice here, and want to chime in on the side of Scooter. After reading your question about timing, I'm not sure if you really have an issue, but if you do, here are some things to consider.

I live in Germany, and I have to mention that since you live in Denmark, I would pass on anything that might seem like an insignificant problem with the 66. It is difficult to find gunsmith's over here that do work on S&Ws or many other US revolvers, and sending it back to the US to S&W is a problem, that can get very complicated. I highly recommend that 620. I had some limited choices over here in Germany, and needed a workhorse .357, one that could shoot well, withstand a steady diet of .357 and have weight and speed balance. I was not able to find a 620, but would have bought one if I did, but was able to find a 619 (the fixed sight and semi-lug version of the 620). Both are no longer made by S&W and are outstanding revolvers. I have had quite a few revolvers in my day, but have never had one that was as satisfactory as this 619. Scooter is not kidding, they are extremely accurate. I am not very recoil sensitive, so I may not be a good rater for that, but I had expected a 4" .357 to be a heavy recoiler. In fact, I think the recoil is better than a 6" GP100 I had some years ago. I also really like the 7 round capacity. I've never really liked the full shroud of the 686, or the balance of it, but really like the semi-lug of the 619 and half shroud of the 620. I think S&W has done itself a disservice by stopping production. You'll be able to get a 686 for years, but not so for the 620. I say snap it up while you can. My 619 has one of the best single action pulls I've ever seen, almost like set trigger, and the double is as smooth as can be; Scooter will most likely concur. With 158 gr SJSPs, I think the recoil and accuracy to be a great combo. If you were in the US, the 66 might be a good idea even if you had to do some repair work, but I woudn't risk it here in Europe.

 

[snubbiefan]

scooter....I am no gunsmith, but have been around them for long time and have made minor repairs and had plenty of them apart to fully understand what you are saying. I think your post is very informative and accurate as well. We all like to snatch our buddies empty gun and shake-n-wiggle it to see how much slack we can feel, or make it do something funny so we can pick at him about how sloppy his gun is, but they all must have some degree of clearance and slack to function.

When the slug enters the forcing-cone...that locks it all up and if you have one that spits lead.....then it has an issue that needs to be looked at.

Very good information and well stated IMO.

 

[scooter123]

It happens that I'm a huge fan of the 620. In fact I suspect that in time it will prove to be the MOST accurate revolver that S&W has ever produced. Note, owners of the 460 and 500 Magnum may dispute this and as I understand it these model also feature tensioned barrels, however I'm not up to the recoil that either the 460 or 500 can produce so I can't comment on the accuracy of the Big Boys. What I do know is that I've managed to shoot some sub 1/2 inch cloverleafs with my 620 at 50 yards and believe a better shooter could put 7 rounds into 1/2 inch at 50 yards. My particular issue is that after 3 or 4 very well placed shots I get excited, get a case of the "yips", and start throwing flyers. At that distance ANY error in release or recoil management will show up downrange as a flyer.

Sadly, most revolver shooters today just don't seem to be interested in accuracy, what they seem to desire is a gun that resembles a Colt Python with what I feel has a rather poor balance in addition to a barrel that is sensitive to ammunition variables.

Quite simply, if you can stretch your budget to get that 620, that is your best choice. However, you'll either need "eagle eyes" or a handgun scope to really push the 620 to it's limits. I'll also warn you that the quest to see what the 620 is capable of can get expensive. Because it's capable of accuracy that 99.99% of the shooters out there cannot shoot to without some type of optical sight.

BTW, with iron sights it will tease you quite often because you'll see a lot of cloverleafs when you manage to get everything correct. With me it started with 2 and 3 shot clusters at 30 feet I could cover with a dime. That happened often enough that I started stretching out the range and shooting from a rest. Then it was the addition of a reflex sight to get a better sight for shooting at longer ranges and I still kept getting teased with really tight 2 and 3 shot clusters. That led to the purchase of a handgun scope and shooting at 50 yards, with the same results. At this point I've resigned myself to the simple truth that I'll never be good enough to put 7 rounds into one hole, I'm too old and too "excitable". The good news is that the journey has turned my into a pretty good single action shooter frpm a rest, for 2 or 3 shots at a time. I've also had some rifle shooters at the 50 yard range ask me what the heck I was shooting because they'd never seen a handgun shoot that tight.

Sum it up, and IMO the model 620 is the FINEST 357 Magnum that S&W has EVER produced. It's the most accurate, has a balance similar to the model 66 or 19, and it's built on a frame that was engineered specifically for the 357 Magnum. In another 50 years it may become as desireable as the Registered Magnum simply because it is just so "right". Those who shunned it because of the new technology barrel will some day regret that choice.

PS; my all time favorite S&W is still my model 67-1 because the balance is so utterly perfect. However the 620 is a close second because the balance is what I would rate as very good and the accuracy is simply stunning. My biggest issue with the 620 is that it's so accurate that it's like a sore tooth, I just can't keep from trying to shoot one single cylinder to it's potential and keep running into my limitations as a shooter.

 

[snubbiefan]

HEY......magger....I went and got that 66 for $450 out-the-door we had discussed earlier in the thread. Remember....the one you said you would give me $500 for?

66 no dash 4-inch pinned barrel and stainless rear sight with plain SS front ramp. I believe this puts it in the "early variant" family. Has seen some shooting, but I have to say it's 90-95% and I only say that because it has a few minor handling dings on the stocks. This gun may be as close as you can get to "the one" you would wish for.