WHY 9mm?

[boingboing]

I carry the three most popular calibers on duty according to the season. I know it sounds strange but to me it makes sense. During the summer I carry a 5906TSW with 115gr. Gold Dots, Fall and spring is when I carry my 4006TSW with 165gr. Gold Dots and Winter is when I carry my 4583TSW with 185gr Gold Dots. Why do I do this you may ask? Simple, during the summer folks wear less clothing so a 9mm is fine, spring and fall folks wear a light jacket so the .40 fits the bill and in the winter everyone looks like eskimo's so the .45 for getting through heavy clothing. Am I concerned about the 9mm? Absolutely not. My last on duty shooting was in 09' in July. I fired 8 times with 7 hits. The suspect started wobbling after the first round went in him. So contrary to what others say, I know the 9mm works. I've seen it. The days of talking about the one shot stop are gone IMHO. Who in their right mind is going to fire one time and look? I shoot with both eyes open and continue to fire until the threat STOPS. Sure a .40 or .45 MAY incapacitate sooner but then again it's where the bullet goes not how big it is. A head shot with a 9mm is just as effective as a head shot with a .45.

 

[oldman45]

A head shot with a 9mm is just as effective as a head shot with a .45.

Maybe, maybe not. Examine the damage from shots from each. Had you shot someone using a larger caliber, you may have not needed as many shots.

Look at the actual results during WWII between the 9mm and the .45. Soldiers complained that hits with the 9mm did not stop agression as did the .45acp. The Germans compalined they needed the .45 like the American forces had.

I wish I could post the videos of shootings with each caliber. There is a noticible difference. I have used everything in the last 35+ yrs from .38spl to .357 mag to 9mm to .40 to the .45acp. There is a reason departments left the 9mm.

Is the 9mm an ineffective caliber? No it is not. Is there a more effective caliber? Yes but people resist change and old habits die hard. Would I use a 9mm in SD? Yes, if I did not have a more effective caliber available. The idea is to gain all the advantage we can and that includes shot placement as well as caliber.

 

[APS]

I too find the videos interesting. But since they are different instances, different people getting shot in different places, can we say one was more effective than another? What would have happened in the 9mm video if the person was shot in the same places with a 40, 45, whatever? Are the high round counts with 9mm b/c of the lower recoil of the 9mm allows you to fire 6rnds/sec? Who knows.
Did those departments leave the 9mm b/c of perception or reality? Perception and confidence in your round is important. ISP, INS, Secret Service all used and were happy with 9mm +P+ ammunition at a time when .45ACP was available. After reading an article on the INS adoption of the .40S&W 155gr. round, I got the impression they would have stayed with the 9mm +P+ if the firearms manufacturers would have warrantied their weapons to take extended use of that +P+ load.
I don't know, this is all discombobulating me. I have both 9mm and .45 firearms and feel that there are some .45 loads (the high energy ones) that will perform better than any 9mm loads, and some 9mm loads (the +P and +P+) that will outperform standard pressure .45 loads in regards to energy transfer. I just don't know....

 

[snw19_357]

I thought this was a, “Why do you use a 9mm?” thread.

Who cares ??...To each his own and the heck with what Joe Blow says.

Exactly.

 

[M29since14]

Hi:
What are your reasons for CCW a 9mm?
What type ammo do you use?
Do you feel comfortable with a 9mm or would you prefer a larger caliber?
Thanks,
Jimmy

Some pretty reasonable questions, but in spite of that - the usual 9mm vs. everything food-fight.

To answer your questions, first, because the 9 I use is about the most powerful gun I can carry easily. I am too lazy to wear a heavy belt and holstered Commander any more.

Ammo is Federal 124-gr Hydra-shok, standard pressure.

I am OK with the 9 since I see myself as being in comparatively little danger, but yes, I would prefer a larger gun, and generally have one handy.

 

[J.P.60]

While I have made some cat-calls myself, one simple truth remains, as pointed out by quite a few:

The most effective handgun and caliber is the one you shoot best, trust and carry. In the end... that is the only answer.

9mm may not be the answer for me, but, I am not going to stand in front of a shooter who chooses that caliber, and laugh, any more than I am someone who is armed with a .22LR or .25.

 

[stantheman86]

I always liked that little cartoon Just like that joke "Did you add a ladder sight to your 1911 so you can hit the 25 yard target"

I practice with the handguns I carry at least weekly.....work schedule and daylight permitting, daily if I can. I have fired weapons in combat on the two way firing range, so I know how I respond to stress and adrenaline, and I know how to compensate for it. Some people I have met, who carry some super slick tactical .45, 40 or 10mm, have never fired a shot outside of a target range. Most have a $1,000 Para or Kimber CC gun they may fire once or twice a year, but they will scoff at my 9mm CZ75 or one of my .38's as a "pop gun". I tell them "at least I can hit with it!"

Depending on the season, the way I'm dressed etc. I carry a .25 ACP, a .32 ACP, .380, 9x18, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, or a 9x19. With a 4" K-frame HB like my 64-3, 10-8 I am a deadly shot with 130 gr. +P .38's. It's what I do the most shooting with. Second is my .357 4" Ruger GP100,that I plan to have cut for moon clips....... I feel the equal to any situation with that gun.

I knew a guy who swore by his Kimber .45 he thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread......I took him shooting and he could barely hit the target with it. I let him fire my 67-1 and he was pretty good with it in DA.......by the time we left he was actually shooting groups at 25 yards with "that old 80's cop gun". I haven't seen him in years but I hope by now he's got a S&W revolver he can actually hit with, rather than some super slick .45 he can't hit the ground with.

 

[Jc85]

ive browsed through this thread and made it pretty far until I felt my head was going to explode. nice cartoon btw.

I don't believe anyone listed this;
back in the 70's allot of duty pistols were switched over to the .40 cal. Not because the nine couldn't "kill" the target.. but because the 9mm COULDN'T bring down the target.. Everyone all hopped up on narcotics. the adrenaline flowing through them just allowed the badguy to keep moving.. Getting hit with a .40cal is like getting hit with a brick to the chest.. It'll sit you down. Maybe a brick is a tad to much, how about punched really hard?

 

[oldman45]

ive browsed through this thread and made it pretty far until I felt my head was going to explode. nice cartoon btw.

I don't believe anyone listed this;
back in the 70's allot of duty pistols were switched over to the .40 cal. Not because the nine couldn't "kill" the target.. but because the 9mm COULDN'T bring down the target.. Everyone all hopped up on narcotics. the adrenaline flowing through them just allowed the badguy to keep moving.. Getting hit with a .40cal is like getting hit with a brick to the chest.. It'll sit you down. Maybe a brick is a tad to much, how about punched really hard?

I agree with most of your post.

However I, as well as others, have found those on narcotics to be weaker than average. The meth users are generally those that are the weakest followed closely by those with long term heroin habits. Depending on the drug of choice, they may not feel pain or they may have a short lived, temporarily burst of strength and this is where the larger calibers shine. Yet the system of almost anyone on any drug for long term (chronic or addiction) will be weaker than a normal person.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I must be getting older; it's actually fun to read threads like these, especially posts with cartoons.

I am almost positive that a good hit with a .44 Mag, or even some .44 Special rounds, is better than a good hit with .380 FMJ. Beyond that, the discussion is just entertainment. Not saying bullets and velocity don't count, just saying that anatomy and luck count a lot more, so much more that most comparisons of handgun loads with an eye to badmouthing what the other guy is carrying are ridiculous.

I often carry a 2" K-frame with FBI loads. I seldom travel with a 9mm these days, but when I do, it's because I like my Browning HP and its capacity. In some states, I feel somewhat constrained by strange/immoral laws, and have a C*** Series 80 Government Model for the same purpose. I don't feel unarmed with any of the above, and I don't consider a man with a .380 he can shoot to be at any disadvantage I'd like to bet on.

That's how I see it.

 

[Bratastic007]

For what it's worth, I'll offer an observation from an IDPA shoot I attended and participated in yesterday.

The first stage was a series of 6 steel plates. Load up to 10 rounds (no reloads), and knock 'em down as quick as you can from about 30 feet away.

The guys shooting 9mm seemed to consistently have problems knocking down the plates, and it wasn't for lack of accuracy. Often times you'd hear a "ringer" and the plate would rock back on its hinge a bit, but just not get to the tipping point. Once or twice I even saw the 9mm bullet itself "bounce" off, up, and away into the air.

The guys shooting .45, .40, and .38 (me, out of my S&W R8), had no issues in putting down the plates--assuming accurate shots.

Draw whatever conclusions you like. I'm just offering this since it happened yesterday and seems to fit the topic.

 

[Lost Lake]

Methinks if you depend on a perfect shot in a self defense scenario then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.

You may need to shoot through heavy clothes, perhaps an MP3 player, maybe a cell phone, you may hit an arm bone and an MP3 player, then a rib bone. You may have to shoot through a car door the perp is hiding behind while he blindly shoots at you with his hand sticking out.

In any case, the extra power inherent in the larger calibers will afford you a better chance at achieving your goal.

No you cannot compare morgue statistics, street fights, or hearsay.... But you can compare what each caliber does on ballistic gel, glass panels, steel plates, wood studs, water jugs. I don't want to carry a weapon I need a perfect shot with, but I do want the biggest weapon I can carry.

That said, I carry a .40 sometimes because it packs a lot of rounds, and it has impressive power, some loads are more powerful than some .45 loads.

I also carry a .380 because it is so small. I don't want the .40 all the time, the .380 is all I want to carry. I will be at a disadvantage if I need to shoot a BG hiding behind a car door. I won't be able to shoot through a car windshield. But I give up those advantages for comfort while carrying.

If you are carrying your 9mm while I am carrying my .380 I'd say you have a definite advantage. I'll admit the 9mm is a more useful self defense cartridge than the .25, .32, .380.

But it seems like that's where it stops. Once you get to 9mm people that carry them just flat out refuse to think any larger caliber could actually be more effective for self defense!

 

[RufusG]

In any case, the extra power inherent in the larger calibers will afford you a better chance at achieving your goal.

No you cannot compare morgue statistics, street fights, or hearsay.... But you can compare what each caliber does on ballistic gel, glass panels, steel plates, wood studs, water jugs. I don't want to carry a weapon I need a perfect shot with, but I do want the biggest weapon I can carry.

My experience with wood stumps and (drumroll please!) styrofoam is that 9mm and 357 have a better chance of getting through than a 45. Because I've never seen a 9mm or 357 bounce off a stump or get stopped by styrofoam, but I sure have with a 45 (shooting at the same target with at least two of the three cartridges). But I might as well go to Mecca and tell them Mohammed ran a ponzi scheme for all the chance that someone who has eleveated the 45 to the status of religious totem would listen.

I didn't get this experience through any grand plan or pre-conceived notion to prove something was better than the other. I just stumbled upon it and couldn't really believe my eyes. But upon further review there was nothing wrong with my eyes. Styrofoam for crying out loud.

Whenever I post these experiences the 45 guys are kind enough to tell me what I did or saw wrong. So I'll just shut up now and save you the trouble. I'm sure I was mistaken.

 

[Lost Lake]

My experience with wood stumps and (drumroll please!) styrofoam is that 9mm and 357 have a better chance of getting through than a 45. Because I've never seen a 9mm or 357 bounce off a stump or get stopped by styrofoam, but I sure have with a 45 (shooting at the same target with at least two of the three cartridges).

Well do tell!!!

 

[Jc85]

However I, as well as others, have found those on narcotics to be weaker than average.

I agree that the overall wellness of the chronic user is diminished. But I am talking about that "short lived burst of strength" were the badguy can continue running or doing w/e threatening / lethal activity he was doing to my person to involve use of lethal force.
we've all seen the movie scare face were at the end hes full of holes but still blowing stuff up.. Yes its extremely animated and exaggerated but the principle behind it holds true. I myself only own a 9mm so that will be my carry piece for the time being.

 

[RufusG]

Well do tell!!!

Wood stump, bounced:

I didn't have a camera when I found the undamaged 45 slug stuck in the styrofoam framework inside a stereo equipment box I was shooting at, but that's pretty easy to imagine.

 

[oldman45]

Wood stump, bounced:

I didn't have a camera when I found the undamaged 45 slug stuck in the styrofoam framework inside a stereo equipment box I was shooting at, but that's pretty easy to imagine.

I will assure you that a .45 will penetrate several inches of styrofoam unless there are other factors such as a poor reload.

As to stumps, I broke a new chain on a chainsaw the first time out when I hit a hard knot on a dead oak tree. Stumps contain wood of varying density. If the wood is wet and half rotten, nothing is going to penetrate it.

Consider that the best of the best units of our military continues to use the .45acp as does the SWAT team with the L.A. Police department and many more elite units. They encounter things the avg patrol will not and their gun must be able to handle it. I have an old railroad crosstie and a few stumps on my farm that have been filled with .45acp holes and never a problem. Just stick a target on it and shoot away. A round bouncing off is not something that will happen as long as the ammo is up to par and not all reloads are up to standards. That is why squibs happen.

 

[oldman45]

My experience with wood stumps and (drumroll please!) styrofoam is that 9mm and 357 have a better chance of getting through than a 45. Because I've never seen a 9mm or 357 bounce off a stump or get stopped by styrofoam, but I sure have with a 45 (shooting at the same target with at least two of the three cartridges). But I might as well go to Mecca and tell them Mohammed ran a ponzi scheme for all the chance that someone who has eleveated the 45 to the status of religious totem would listen.

Experiences vary with conditions.

Many police departments found out early on that a 9mm will not penetrate a car door in many instances. Anything a 9mm will penetrate, a .45acp will also and leave a larger hole doing so. I have a car door from a 1987 Caprice that has been shot by everything from a .22 to a .500 and the differences between calibers is astounding.

The 9mm is not a bad caliber, just not as effective as a larger caliber. There are some things I would not want to go after with a .45 either.

 

[RufusG]

I will assure you that a .45 will penetrate several inches of styrofoam unless there are other factors such as a poor reload.

As to stumps, I broke a new chain on a chainsaw the first time out when I hit a hard knot on a dead oak tree. Stumps contain wood of varying density. If the wood is wet and half rotten, nothing is going to penetrate it.

Regarding the styrofoam, it was factory ammo. Your assurances in this case mean nothing, it stopped the 45. 9mm passed through.

Regarding the stump, 9mm and 357 penetrated, 45 bounced off.

I know this is all very upsetting to those who consider the 45 the be-all and end all. I'm sorry, I'm just reporting what I saw.

 

[RufusG]

Anything a 9mm will penetrate, a .45acp will also and leave a larger hole doing so. .

Despite the fact that I just gave you two examples from my personal experience that shows this is simply not true, I'm sure you will continue to report this as proven fact. But that's what I've come to expect from this discussion. Some people's minds are made up, and if some occurrence doesn't adhere to one of their tightly held biases, they just pretend it never happened. I'm sure I am either lying or stupid. Or both. Carry on, sorry to have disturbed you, please return to your normal programming.