Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb

[fredj338]

From the stuff I’ve looked it doesn’t seem like much difference in lethality, but if the bullets don’t pass through, a 230 gr .45 @ 900 fps should thump you a lot harder than a 90 grain .380 @ 1,000 fps.

The thump is momentum, easily seen moving steel plates around, but then that is also target mass dependent. Again, there is no comparing a 380 & ANY of the service calibers. Even though the 9mm is the same dia, it delivers more momentum & the bullets are capable of expansion with penetration. Something very few 380 rds can do.
If we are seeing minimums, I like 9mm & more than 350ft# of energy with a bullet mass heavy enough to penetrate AFTER the bullet has expanded. That is usually at least the midrange weight per caliber, regardless of that caliber. Sticking to that min you see a lot of success in service calibers in a fight. Below that things get iffy.

 

[ElectroMotive]

I think the theory behind having a bullet that expands and penetrates 12" is that some of our defensive shots will take a path other than the front to back position on the attacker. For example, an attacker might move sideways, with your bullet entering his upper arm or hip, having to pass through muscle and bone, possibly at a diagonal (longer) path, before entering the chest cavity and having to hit a vital. This apparently happens frequently enough to warrant a foot deep penetration for many so-called 'experts'.

I'm not an expert, but that's the theory I've read.

That's actually correct. It hearkens back to the FBI Miami Shootout in 1986. One round, a Winchester 115gr Silvertip struck the upper right arm of Mattix (armed with a Mini-14). The round hit the brachial artery in his arm, slipped between his ribs, and stopped just short of his heart. It was a fatal wound, but not immediately. Had the bullet continued on and penetrated his heart, the wound would've been more likely to incapacitate, and do it quickly. Instead he mowed down several agents before being taken down by blasts (note: plural) from a 12 gauge and a cylinder full of .38+Ps from a S&W M13-3* (*I think).

It's a failure of what we thought we knew back then when it comes to bullet performance (light and fast), among other tactical errors.


So in a defensive shooting, badguys tend to have weapons in their hands, trying to use them on you (you third person). It would stand to reason for anyone with any common sense that your bullets mighthave to truck through the badguy's arm(s) before striking the CoM. But hey, maybe things are different at B-dubs when the Masters is on.

 

[Ribwizzard]

The thump is momentum, easily seen moving steel plates around, but then that is also target mass dependent. Again, there is no comparing a 380 & ANY of the service calibers. Even though the 9mm is the same dia, it delivers more momentum & the bullets are capable of expansion with penetration. Something very few 380 rds can do.
If we are seeing minimums, I like 9mm & more than 350ft# of energy with a bullet mass heavy enough to penetrate AFTER the bullet has expanded. That is usually at least the midrange weight per caliber, regardless of that caliber. Sticking to that min you see a lot of success in service calibers in a fight. Below that things get iffy.

It's not momentum, it's the kinetic energy. Remember...energy varies with the square root of velocity. While 100 ft per second might not add much momentum, it adds a truck load of energy( proof is in the math) that is why momentum is not commonly used when measuring ammo potential.

 

[Gamecock]

They do say they correlate results in gel to results from police shootings.

'Adjudicated cases,' at 3:09, whatever that means. I am not aware of any such database. If he's really got it, the world would like to see it.

 

[sigp220.45]

'Adjudicated cases,' at 3:09, whatever that means. I am not aware of any such database. If he's really got it, the world would like to see it.

I’m pretty sure there isn’t a “retained weight and diameter of bullets dug out of shot up bad guys” database. I wish there was - it would make for great reading.

There are a lot of us who have actually seen bullets dug out of shot up bad guys, though. The ones I’ve seen look a lot like the ones from gel tests. Probably the same with the guys from the video. I bet if you work for a major ammo company and have ammo contracts with a bunch of police departments it isn’t hard to get a peek at bullets you sold that were later recovered from shot up bad guys.

I remember the bad old days of people complaining about .38 RNL bullets failing to put bad guys down with good shots. That doesn’t seem to happen with this new breed of ammo. Everything seems to work pretty well.

 

[Steve912]

It's not momentum, it's the kinetic energy. Remember...energy varies with the square root of velocity. .

Ya gotta stop...lol!

 

[Muss Muggins]

I think 67 posts are enough to at least prove the premise of the title of the OP . . .

 

[Kanewpadle]

I think 67 posts are enough to at least prove the premise of the title of the OP . . .

Here we go again!

 

[stansdds]

It has been a lively and civil debate... so far.

 

[sotexas]

Not being a ballistic expert I feel any of my rounds would be effective in my EDC situations. I figure the range would be anywhere from 1'- 20' without shooting through structural barriers. I live in an area where thin clothing barriers are worn 85% of the time. I primarily carry a 9mm but also carry a .45acp and a .380acp occasionally. Barnes 115gr TAC-XPD+p 9mm, Winchester Ranger T .45acp, Hornady 95gr FTX Critical Defense. I do use a different strategy in the house.

 

[The Big D]

Wow!

Seventy (70!) posts discussing (mostly) whether a certain round will ‘stop’ an inanimate object from doing whatever it is inanimate objects do.

Be safe.

PS: And it appears at least one member has been consigned to ban camp for his/her involvement.

 

[sigp220.45]

PS: And it appears at least one member has been consigned to ban camp for his/her involvement.

I don’t think it was this one that got him voted off the island. He was in a doozy regarding old guns and newer shooters.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I don’t think it was this one that got him voted off the island. He was in a doozy regarding old guns and newer shooters.

I’m pretty sure it was the Grizzly Bear thread that got his ticket punched . . .

 

[eb07]

Synthetic gel is not a reliable test medium.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Lots of good information here, lots of controversy, and I am crushed that anyone would think you don't need 1000 horsepower to drive to the grocery store. If they make it and you can afford it then that's your grocery-mobile!

That settles it. No further debate foreseeable.

I like that. Succinct and to the point and he KNOWS things - this debate must be over. Or is it?

Very cute..........

I'm just having fun, living every day as well as I can, and if someone tries to "make my day" I will have the cure for that someone and I won't be thinking about how my PDT, personal defense tool, and its ammo would work in ballistic gelatin. But I am glad someone thinks about it.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

But I am glad someone thinks about it.

Tough job, but somebody has to do it.

 

[Robspeire]

i buy all my ammo from Lucky Gunner & buy according to their Ballistic Tests. Ammo that meets FBI Standards.

 

[American1776]

Track record "on the street" tends to be more influential in my own carry choices than gel performance.

The Federal 9mmBPLE (115 gr. +p+ @ 1,300 ft/s) used for many years by the ISP did extraordinary things on the street. It doesn't always get 12'' in the gel, but it has litany of quick and decisive stops.

The Federal, Winchester, or Remington .357 magnum 125 gr. SJHP @ 1,450 ft/s doesn't always reach 12'' in the gel, but the street cred it developed in the 70's with police agencies all over the country was legendary. Departments nick named the round 'The magic bullet' or the 'lightening bolt' to describe its instantaneous effect it had, even with non-COM hits.

The .45 acp in the 230 gr. GI ball configuration doesn't do magic in the gel, but it developed a devout following from the trenches, the European theater, the rice paddies. In WW1, the German might shoot an American with their 9mm 124 gr. ball rounds. The American would then shoot the German with a 230 gr. FMJ of caliber forty five, and walk himself off to medical attention, after the German would fall down and die (I think Massad Ayoob wrote this very sort of account that has been described by veterans).

 

[Steve912]

Synthetic gel is not a reliable test medium.

Non-GMO, gluten-free, all the way!

 

[fredj338]

It's not momentum, it's the kinetic energy. Remember...energy varies with the square root of velocity. While 100 ft per second might not add much momentum, it adds a truck load of energy( proof is in the math) that is why momentum is not commonly used when measuring ammo potential.

Nope, it is not energy. The energy dump crowd still wants to thin if you just get another 50ft# it becomes a death ray. Most of the energy is used up deforming the bullet. A simple backyard test to show momentum vs energy;
30# steel knock over plate. Hit it with a 230gr/45 fmj, goes right over, about 400ft# ME. Now shoot it again with a 115gr +9 jhp, the plate is likely staying up, same 400ft# ME.
Switch it around, shoot a 1gal water jug with each. the 45 will put a nice hole in it but unimpressive. The 115gr+p jhp will shred the jug. So what happened, same ME?? The diff is the bullet is doing work in diff ways on each target. There really isn't much energy transfer. A newton's law of physics thing.