Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb

[fredj338]

Synthetic gel is not a reliable test medium.

It is if you just want to compare what a bullet is capable of, but then again so is wetpack. Bullets I have recovered from wetpack, gel would be the same. looking a lot like ones I have pulled from large game animals. The only diff is penetration is greater in living tissue because it isn't homogenous or reduced because you hit bone. One bullet from wetpack the other from a 500# animal. Yeah looks pretty good huh.

 

[s&wchad]

Focus on the topic, not each other.

From our rules:

Remember- opinions will differ. Get over it. State your opinion calmly, and allow others to state theirs. Discussion will be fine, but there is no need to take a thread into a verbal fistfight or shouting match.

This thread will be locked if it requires further moderation.

 

[Daniel Howe]

I enjoy reading a topic like this but I also have to admit there is no right answer. Carry what makes you feel good and learn how to use it. A .380 into the sternum will kill you just as dead as a .45. I'm confined to a wheelchair so my quality of life leaves a lot to be desired but I don't take any chances with defense. I carry a 1911 and a .45acp derringers. Do I need that much fire power? Will I ever use it? I hope not.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

What does this mean? Possibly nothing at all, but maybe instead of counting dead people, we should be talking more to survivors as to how the shot effected them. If my friend had been the attacker, he still would have had time to deliver I'll intentions, the lady was knocked off her feet.

An instructor for a defensive handgun course I took years ago made the following point:
"Abdominal wounds are known to be painful. What does that tell us?"
"Abdominal wounds are ineffective."
Interviews with survivors might be worthwhile if they were paired with a thorough and careful dissection/vivisection of the wound otherwise they just form a collection of anecdotes instead of being data.


One thing I didn't like about the video is that they did a poor job of explaining that 10% gelatin and the performance metrics are not an arbitrary choice. 10% gelatin testing is well correlated with swine muscle tissue and actual shooting results.

 

[Gamecock]

10% gelatin testing is well correlated with . . . actual shooting results.

No such data exists.

 

[7shooter]

Real world results are available for free online by Googleing " Handgun Stopping Power " by Greg Ellifritz. Great objective research.

The best source I have seen. Let us know if you have seen a better one

 

[Ziggy2525]

No such data exists.

Maybe not a lot, but it exists. Here's a link to a study by San Diego PD criminologist Gene Wolberg that compared Winchester 9mm 147 grain JHP's between autopsy results from San Diego OIS's and results from 10% ordnance gel.

Here's the link. It's in a magazine/journal and starts on page 10.
1991-Vol1No1.pdf | Experiment

I've seem some stuff by Gary Roberts (DocGKR) where he's said a couple large California PD's and the RCMP have also made larger comparisons. I think the data is out there, but may not be easy to get.

 

[Telecaster]

Paul Harrell's meat targets are a great supplement to gel testing.

 

[Ribwizzard]

Nope, it is not energy. The energy dump crowd still wants to thin if you just get another 50ft# it becomes a death ray. Most of the energy is used up deforming the bullet. A simple backyard test to show momentum vs energy;
30# steel knock over plate. Hit it with a 230gr/45 fmj, goes right over, about 400ft# ME. Now shoot it again with a 115gr +9 jhp, the plate is likely staying up, same 400ft# ME.
Switch it around, shoot a 1gal water jug with each. the 45 will put a nice hole in it but unimpressive. The 115gr+p jhp will shred the jug. So what happened, same ME?? The diff is the bullet is doing work in diff ways on each target. There really isn't much energy transfer. A newton's law of physics thing.

The difference between the two is how the energy is tranfered. That is the whole point to these kinds of test and this thread. The two projectiles carrying the same energy are capable of equal results. The difference between the two is the part you are not recognizing; SPEED.
The speed that the energy transfers from the projectile to the target!
Please stop and think about this. A .556 with armor piercing tip delivers a extremely fast transfer and cuts a clean hole in your plate. A .45 acp hardball due to not much deformation and just the big dia. Still delivers a fairly quick transfer of energy. But your 9 mm will deform and deliver a slower transfer.

But, the speed will work against you as well. Put a armor piercing 9mm onto that plate, and becouse of the faster transfer , is going to dent the plate more than swing it around like the slow .45

Bullet designs, before all they were trying to create fragmented rounds, was all about speeding the transfer of energy by mushrooming the lead. They did not want the fast magnum rounds zipping right through the target. They wanted all the energy deliver red to the target. Now they are fragmenting to transfer that energy in all different directions.

Think about it this way, I drop a sheet of drywall that weighs 20 lbs flat on your head vs a 20 lb. Cannon ball, they both have the same momentum, but the cannon ball is transferring it faster and going to do more damage.

 

[44wheelman]

Energy vs momentum, expansion vs. penetration, capacity, recoil, size, concealability.....everything is a compromise. Not like you can decide if you will be trying to incapacitate a skinny or a fat person either.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
Think about it this way, I drop a sheet of drywall that weighs 20 lbs flat on your head vs a 20 lb. Cannon ball, they both have the same momentum, but the cannon ball is transferring it faster and going to do more damage.

Explain how that works.

 

[sniper]

Well now...

I have enjoyed the presentation and most of the opinions. Let me clarify where I am coming from...In my earlier days, 1950s, there was no ballistic gelatin. (That most of us knew about, anyway)

In the search for useful information about bullet performance, people regularly used media like wet Newspapers, Ivory soap bars, modeling clay or some sort of goo they used for sealing automobile windshields, that workers first formed into blocks which they used to pound on the glass to get it to seat/seal properly. Then came the "Swine tests"...but nobody outside the Government was about to waste good ham and bacon on something like ammo tests...at least if you were poor! You hunted it, shot it, butchered it, and ate it! (IIRC.)

Nowadays, we have the benefit of countless YouTube "experts" who "test" ammunition for our amazement and delight! (Some, much better than others) not to mention the long gone "Myth Busters" and nowadays..."Hollywood Guns".

Point is, nowadays, we have more information and ammo than we can shake a stick at, and as many opinions. IMNHO, The best we can do is pick our experts carefully, listen to them, then go buy ammo from one of the big, established ammo makers, who actually use Gel data to improve their products. None of them make bad stuff! At least, not for long! Sometimes, the "old technology still works very well! Buy one type, stockpile it, and FEAR NOT! Or buy several, if you just can't make up your mind...Don't ask how I know this...THEN we can apply ourselves to areas of more pertinent thought...like... do the Pearly Gates swing or slide, or HOW does one get toothpaste back in the tube?

 

[rubiranch]

Thanks for posting this. I found it very interesting.

 

[Jaymo]

If I'm ever forced to use a gun in self defense (God forbid), I'm pretty sure the bad guy WILL have bones and WON'T be wearing 4 layers of denim.

I don't think there is any round or projectile available for handguns that will do the job every time.
I've shot deer with .30-06 150 gn bullets and with 6.5 Swede. Both were moving at similar velocities.
I've had them drop to both, and I've had them run off from both, with heart/lung shots in all situations.
I've had them drop right now with .44 mag and .444 Marlin carbines.
What am I getting at? Things don't always go according to plan. The best laid plans of mice and men. Yada, yada, etc.
This discussion will rage on for many years to come.

I remember a certain book that was touted as the SD round gospel and the be all, end all of handgun terminal performance data, and the end of big bore SD gun silliness.
Then, it came out that they cherry picked the data, throwing out CNS shots for rounds over a certain projectile diameter but retained CNS shots for rounds of smaller diameters.
That sure got hushed up in a hurry.

I say, we should all get CC holsters for Dillon Miniguns.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

I remember a certain book that was touted as the SD round gospel and the be all, end all of handgun terminal performance data, and the end of big bore SD gun silliness.
Then, it came out that they cherry picked the data, throwing out CNS shots for rounds over a certain projectile diameter but retained CNS shots for rounds of smaller diameters.
That sure got hushed up in a hurry.

It got hushed up so thoroughly I don't know what you're talking about. What book?

 

[jkmo]

An old MO State Highway Patrol Instructor, Roy Bergman told me in basic police class in 1979 the reason people fall down when they get shot is that “ they don’t feel good anymore “.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Roy Bergman. Now there's a blast from the past. The man responsible for destroying more MSHP cruisers than most any other trooper in the history of the patrol. Haven't heard his name in years. Last time I saw him, he was teaching an NRA LE Instructor class at St. Charles County Range in the late 90's, early 2000's . . .

Edit: I see Roy died in 2010. He was certainly a legend . . .

An old MO State Highway Patrol Instructor, Roy Bergman told me in basic police class in 1979 the reason people fall down when they get shot is that “ they don’t feel good anymore “. ��

 

[jkmo]

He ran the range at headquarters for my basic police class. I watched him slick up my Model19. Didn’t know he was a crash o Holic.

 

[tomrkba]

It is just a standardized comparison tool. It may or may not model a human being in different states (calm, high on narcotics, PCP, angry, fighting, etc). All you’re doing is measuring what different loads do in the same material.

 

[Muss Muggins]

That's how you end up teaching at the Academy. Either that or guarding a cornfield on the Iowa/Nebraska border . . .

He ran the range at headquarters for my basic police class. I watched him slick up my Model19. Didn’t know he was a crash o Holic.