Why do most S&W revolvers have adjustable rear sights?
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Arquebus357
Member
I purchase mostly used revolvers. When I inspect a potential purchase, I like to see the rear sight sitting on the frame. That tells me (sorta) that the gun was not a shooters piece or else the sight would be adjusted upward.
What no one has said so far is that revolvers with adjustable sights are simply better looking.
What no one has said so far is that revolvers with adjustable sights are simply better looking.
cadmike
Member
I just had to count, I own 10 Smith & Wesson revolvers. 5 are fixed sighted and 5 are adjustable. So it's a tie here.
But it's not a tie in terms of which guns I shoot the most...the adjustable sighted guns, by far.
But it's not a tie in terms of which guns I shoot the most...the adjustable sighted guns, by far.
Because my point of impact is not your point of impact.
Stu
Stu
Because adjustable looks better. And I look at my guns a lot more than I shoot them.
Frankly I very seldom adjust my sights at all. I'm not shooting long range, or at precision targets, but I can usually make a tin can or a pine cone jump. I just sort of learn where a gun shoots and use "Kentucky Windage" a lot. Same as I'd do for a fixed sight gun.
But the adjustable ones just look so much better.
Frankly I very seldom adjust my sights at all. I'm not shooting long range, or at precision targets, but I can usually make a tin can or a pine cone jump. I just sort of learn where a gun shoots and use "Kentucky Windage" a lot. Same as I'd do for a fixed sight gun.
But the adjustable ones just look so much better.
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Compared to a semi-auto pistol revolvers have more variation in POA. While semi-autos only work well when fed ammunition with a fairly narrow power range a 44 revolver can shoot anything from a 200 grain cowboy load that barely makes it out the barrel to a 300 grain full power load.
Due to the high bore axis and fixed barrel revolvers tend to flip up a bit before the bullet exits the bore. So heavy bullets hit higher than light ones with a revolver. With anything except a blow back semi-auto the barrel and slide are moving straight back when the bullet exits.
Purpose matters too. Except for snubbies not many revolvers are bought for self defense these days. When I take a 9mm striker fired gun to the club I typically shoot steel plates at 12 yards, not paper targets. If I happened to use ammo that shot a few inches high at 25 yards I would not notice. Someone that buys a revolver with a 4 inch or longer barrel is more likely to notice and want to correct a shift in POA.
Due to the high bore axis and fixed barrel revolvers tend to flip up a bit before the bullet exits the bore. So heavy bullets hit higher than light ones with a revolver. With anything except a blow back semi-auto the barrel and slide are moving straight back when the bullet exits.
Purpose matters too. Except for snubbies not many revolvers are bought for self defense these days. When I take a 9mm striker fired gun to the club I typically shoot steel plates at 12 yards, not paper targets. If I happened to use ammo that shot a few inches high at 25 yards I would not notice. Someone that buys a revolver with a 4 inch or longer barrel is more likely to notice and want to correct a shift in POA.
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Gee, only one person mentioned grip/hold on the gun. Unless I missed it, no one mentioned trigger stroke. Your sights can be mechanically dead on, but how you grip the gun and press that trigger actually controls where the bullet hits.
Some folks realize this and either keep working until the bullets hit where they're supposed to. OTOH, there are a slew of threads elsewhere about how my ____________ hits low or low/left and it needs different sights. Now, very occasionally the sights do need adjusted to make point of aim and point of impact the same. In most cases, the posters need to quit yanking the trigger.
Short answer to why all the adjustable sights: customer demand. Plus the adjustables do have a more crisp visual appearance.
Some folks realize this and either keep working until the bullets hit where they're supposed to. OTOH, there are a slew of threads elsewhere about how my ____________ hits low or low/left and it needs different sights. Now, very occasionally the sights do need adjusted to make point of aim and point of impact the same. In most cases, the posters need to quit yanking the trigger.
Short answer to why all the adjustable sights: customer demand. Plus the adjustables do have a more crisp visual appearance.
CA Escapee
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I'd have to agree with what's been said above. Adjustable sights for various loads.
That being said, I took a quick poll in the safe and your're right, 7 with fixed sights and 8 with adjustable, and that's just the S&W's. When I include the other brands, the fixed sight models pull way ahead, though.
It seems like of the revolvers I own any one with a barrel longer than 3" has an adjustable sight and any that are < 3" are fixed. Except I do have a Ruger Security-Six at 2.75" with adjustable sights-that's a flyer in the data.
Bill
That being said, I took a quick poll in the safe and your're right, 7 with fixed sights and 8 with adjustable, and that's just the S&W's. When I include the other brands, the fixed sight models pull way ahead, though.
It seems like of the revolvers I own any one with a barrel longer than 3" has an adjustable sight and any that are < 3" are fixed. Except I do have a Ruger Security-Six at 2.75" with adjustable sights-that's a flyer in the data.
Bill
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KSDeputy
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I don't like adjustable sights on a combat gun. I bought a new snub nose model 66. I replaced the adjustable rear sight with a fixed one and I like it a lot. When it comes to uniform carry revolvers, my favorite is the model 65. I have 7 revolvers and only the model 63 has adjustable rear sight.
I finally got a chance to look. All but one of my 13 S&W revolvers have fixed sights . . .
I see a bottomed out sight and I immediately think "I'll bet that gun still shoots high".
Personally, I like both and there are pros and cons. I prefer adjustable sights on my 4"-6" revolvers and don't mind fixed sights on my 1 7/8" to 3" revolvers provided they are well regulated. However, my preferred .357 Magnum load sports a 125 gr bullet not a 158, and in that case I prefer adjustable sights so that I can regulate it for the load. 125 gr XTPs from a 2 3/4" Security Six at 10 yards:
I prefer night sights on my self defense revolvers, but I'm ok with just a tritium front sight on a self defence revolver (for reasons that become obvious later).
I've found that older fixed sight revolvers are usually well regulated for a particular bullet weight. For example this pre-Model 10 is well regulated for standard pressure 158 bullets at a target distance of 15 yards to 50 feet.
On the other hand recent/current S&Ws tend to be regulated for shorter ranges (5-7 yards) and are much less well regulated. Elevation is usually close, but windage is often off. A good revolver smith can usually correct it. The fact it is correctable reflects a lack of quality assurance at the factory and/or a lack of competent gunsmiths actually assembling the revolvers.
I suspect it also reflects the modern reality that the average person who owns a fixed sight revolver, particularly a fixed sight snub nosed revolver can't shoot one as accurately as the average shooter 40-50+ years ago.
-----
Consider the posts in this thread that suggest that handgun sights zeroed for one shooter won't be zeroed for another shooter. That's only true to the extent that one (or both) of the shooters have issues with grip, trigger control, sight picture, which all equate to the inability to maintain a proper sight picture until the shot is fired.
Over the years I have purchased or borrowed a number of target pistols and revolvers where the previous or current owner knew his or her stuff. I've never found one that did not shoot to point of aim at the intended distance. Why? Because we both know how to properly shoot a handgun.
Similarly, I own a number of non abused older fixed sight S&Ws in .38 Special or .357 Mag) (2" Pre Model 10, 4" pre- Model 10, Model 36-1, Model 13-3, etc, and all of them are well regulated and shoot to point of aim. If everyone shot to a different point of aim, there would have been no reason for S&W to regulate them at all. The fact that most revolver shooters today are not very good shots is I suspect one of the reasons S&W doesn't bother with precise regulation of a fixed sight revolver. Not many customers would notice or appreciate it.
The unfortunate truth is if the point of aim for a revolver is different from shooter to shooter, it's because one or more of the shooters has a poor grip, and/or poor trigger control, and/or poor sight picture.
I've loaned pistols and revolvers to shooters on the range who after several shots comment on the sights being "off" for them. In nearly all cases with a bit of observation I can spot the problem, and with a bit of coaching can correct it.
What happens is that shooters have a more or less consistent error due to tightening the fingers on the grip, or increasing pressure with the thumb as they get close to the trigger break, heeling the gun in anticipation of the recoil, jerking the trigger, or pushing the hand down as the shot breaks, or putting too much or not enough finger on the trigger (how much is correct varies as DA revolvers and pistols need more finger on the trigger to get sufficient leverage than SA pistols and revolvers).
After some practice and coaching, they'll be shooting to point of aim with my pistol, and whey then pick up their own handgun they discover the sights are now "off" on it.
----
For many people, handguns used to be tools that were carried and used on a regular basis, and were expected to be used with precision. Today it's far more likely to see a handgun shooter going to the range and blasting away at a B-27 or zombie target at 5 yards, spraying rounds all over the target at speed and thinking he or she is a good shot.
Occasionally, someone next to me will comment to me or to a friend that I'm into precision target shooting while they are in to tactical shooting. If they are especially annoying or condescending I'll run a B-27 target out whatever range they are shooting at, switch to my conceal carry hand gun and then proceed to do double taps, controlled pairs and failure to stop drills landing the rounds in the 10 ring and head as fast or faster then they are spraying the target. Some of them shut up. Some of them just find a reason to leave. The smart one's ask "how did you learn to do that. The smart one is most often the friend the annoying shooter was explaining things to.
-----
1) Establish the handgun properly in the web of your hand and grip your pistol or revolver firmly (but not a white knuckle death grip) and consistently with no increase or decrease in pressure through the shot.
2) look at your target and bring the handgun up into your line of sight;
3) transfer your focus to the front sight;
4) place the front sight on target (center or 6 o'clock hold both work);
5) take the slack out of the trigger;
6) PAUSE and verify the sights are aligned and, if not, correct the alignment; then
7) finish the trigger squeeze by increasing pressure when the sight picture is good and holding pressure when the sight picture is bad.
Start slow and as you practice you'll find the muscles in your arm and hand learn exactly how they have to be tensioned to achieve near perfect rear sight alignment with the front blade and maintain it through the trigger squeeze.
In the process you'll also be developing the eye motor loop needed to keep the front sight on target with minimum wobble.
Finally, you'll be developing the eye motor loop needed to control the trigger to ensure the shot leaves with an adequate or improving sight picture.
Once you've developed your grip, and trigger control to that degree you can slowly speed up the process where you draw, bring the front blade on target and release the shot. The length of the pause shrinks over time and practice to almost nothing and is used to verify the blade is on target and/or in a self defense situation that you truly have/still have a need to shoot. You'll still want to include slow fire practice to ensure you don't lose focus on the fundamentals or develop any bad habits.
I prefer night sights on my self defense revolvers, but I'm ok with just a tritium front sight on a self defence revolver (for reasons that become obvious later).
I've found that older fixed sight revolvers are usually well regulated for a particular bullet weight. For example this pre-Model 10 is well regulated for standard pressure 158 bullets at a target distance of 15 yards to 50 feet.
On the other hand recent/current S&Ws tend to be regulated for shorter ranges (5-7 yards) and are much less well regulated. Elevation is usually close, but windage is often off. A good revolver smith can usually correct it. The fact it is correctable reflects a lack of quality assurance at the factory and/or a lack of competent gunsmiths actually assembling the revolvers.
I suspect it also reflects the modern reality that the average person who owns a fixed sight revolver, particularly a fixed sight snub nosed revolver can't shoot one as accurately as the average shooter 40-50+ years ago.
-----
Consider the posts in this thread that suggest that handgun sights zeroed for one shooter won't be zeroed for another shooter. That's only true to the extent that one (or both) of the shooters have issues with grip, trigger control, sight picture, which all equate to the inability to maintain a proper sight picture until the shot is fired.
Over the years I have purchased or borrowed a number of target pistols and revolvers where the previous or current owner knew his or her stuff. I've never found one that did not shoot to point of aim at the intended distance. Why? Because we both know how to properly shoot a handgun.
Similarly, I own a number of non abused older fixed sight S&Ws in .38 Special or .357 Mag) (2" Pre Model 10, 4" pre- Model 10, Model 36-1, Model 13-3, etc, and all of them are well regulated and shoot to point of aim. If everyone shot to a different point of aim, there would have been no reason for S&W to regulate them at all. The fact that most revolver shooters today are not very good shots is I suspect one of the reasons S&W doesn't bother with precise regulation of a fixed sight revolver. Not many customers would notice or appreciate it.
The unfortunate truth is if the point of aim for a revolver is different from shooter to shooter, it's because one or more of the shooters has a poor grip, and/or poor trigger control, and/or poor sight picture.
I've loaned pistols and revolvers to shooters on the range who after several shots comment on the sights being "off" for them. In nearly all cases with a bit of observation I can spot the problem, and with a bit of coaching can correct it.
What happens is that shooters have a more or less consistent error due to tightening the fingers on the grip, or increasing pressure with the thumb as they get close to the trigger break, heeling the gun in anticipation of the recoil, jerking the trigger, or pushing the hand down as the shot breaks, or putting too much or not enough finger on the trigger (how much is correct varies as DA revolvers and pistols need more finger on the trigger to get sufficient leverage than SA pistols and revolvers).
After some practice and coaching, they'll be shooting to point of aim with my pistol, and whey then pick up their own handgun they discover the sights are now "off" on it.
----
For many people, handguns used to be tools that were carried and used on a regular basis, and were expected to be used with precision. Today it's far more likely to see a handgun shooter going to the range and blasting away at a B-27 or zombie target at 5 yards, spraying rounds all over the target at speed and thinking he or she is a good shot.
Occasionally, someone next to me will comment to me or to a friend that I'm into precision target shooting while they are in to tactical shooting. If they are especially annoying or condescending I'll run a B-27 target out whatever range they are shooting at, switch to my conceal carry hand gun and then proceed to do double taps, controlled pairs and failure to stop drills landing the rounds in the 10 ring and head as fast or faster then they are spraying the target. Some of them shut up. Some of them just find a reason to leave. The smart one's ask "how did you learn to do that. The smart one is most often the friend the annoying shooter was explaining things to.
-----
1) Establish the handgun properly in the web of your hand and grip your pistol or revolver firmly (but not a white knuckle death grip) and consistently with no increase or decrease in pressure through the shot.
2) look at your target and bring the handgun up into your line of sight;
3) transfer your focus to the front sight;
4) place the front sight on target (center or 6 o'clock hold both work);
5) take the slack out of the trigger;
6) PAUSE and verify the sights are aligned and, if not, correct the alignment; then
7) finish the trigger squeeze by increasing pressure when the sight picture is good and holding pressure when the sight picture is bad.
Start slow and as you practice you'll find the muscles in your arm and hand learn exactly how they have to be tensioned to achieve near perfect rear sight alignment with the front blade and maintain it through the trigger squeeze.
In the process you'll also be developing the eye motor loop needed to keep the front sight on target with minimum wobble.
Finally, you'll be developing the eye motor loop needed to control the trigger to ensure the shot leaves with an adequate or improving sight picture.
Once you've developed your grip, and trigger control to that degree you can slowly speed up the process where you draw, bring the front blade on target and release the shot. The length of the pause shrinks over time and practice to almost nothing and is used to verify the blade is on target and/or in a self defense situation that you truly have/still have a need to shoot. You'll still want to include slow fire practice to ensure you don't lose focus on the fundamentals or develop any bad habits.
Clearly I need to re-evaluate my whole existence. I'm amazed that I'm still alive . . .
357 shooter
Member
Adjustable sights compensate for that pure and simple. How a shooter grips the gun and the way the gun torques in the hand in recoil all contribute to the point of impact.
With a proper sight picture most shooters prefer a gun that shoots to the point of aim. I prefer having a blade rear sight that can be adjusted especially at 25 or 50 yards. And the adjustable sights are simply easier to see compared to sighting down a groove in the top of the frame.
Sistema1927
US Veteran
Most? None of the S&W revolvers currently in my safes have adjustable sights. I had a 19-4 and a 686 with adjustable sights, but they are long gone. I have never sold a fixed sight S&W, they tend to stick around and breed.
A fixed sight gun will shoot one load to the sights. M10s shooting 158gr factory ammo are usually right on the money. The most accurate fixed sight S&W I've owned was a 58 when first out. With 210 Peters it shot like a target gun. Having said that other than sighting in for different loads the adj sights present a better sight picture. I like the Colt adj better than S&W.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
As said above when you want a dead accurate revolver with a certain hand load that you cooked up adjusting the rear sight could be necessary to zero it in at the distance your shooting.
My older brother is what I call a marksman would fire one bullet from and gun and use Kentucky windage and put the rest in the x ring. He was my mentor.
My older brother is what I call a marksman would fire one bullet from and gun and use Kentucky windage and put the rest in the x ring. He was my mentor.
max503
Member
Given the choice, ALL my guns would have adjustable sights. I have more confidence in a gun if I know I can hit with it. I'd prefer a well-placed wadcutter over a random hit with a hollow point any day.
Ashlander
Member
You seriously think that fixed sights on a gun render it no more accurate than "random hits?"
Just as an example, there are a multitude of guys on this forum who think a 3" Model 65 is one of the best carry guns ever. The DEA used them until they switched to semis. The FBI used the blued version, the Model 13. You think they were relying on random hits????
I truly hope I misunderstood your point.
Cordially.
My suspicion is that they sell better.
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