Why don't promoters have a hidden shooter to counter these attacks?

[Jst1mr]

As stated by many, providing "snipers" as security is impractical on many levels. I am not providing an opinion here, but I would guess that prevention measures will seek to address how the attacker lugged 10 or more suitcases stuffed with 19 guns and ?? ammo to his chosen lair. Hotel metal detectors? Bag limits? Certain locked bags allowed in hotel storage only? Physical bag inspection?
I don't know the answer, and any of the above reactions would continue to chip away at our freedoms or way of life. I'm afraid all of these actions/reactions will be debated in the near future. I sure do not believe any of the large, open-air get togethers that are so predominant around the country can afford the type of preparation and security scrutiny that a visit from POTUS might get....

 

[rwsmith]

In this case....

In this case the guy was hundreds of yards away, shooting down from 30 something stories up. I doubt that anybody knew where it was even coming from until it was too late. Like somebody said, too many variables.

If it would work, I'd be all for it.

 

[petepeterson]

I doubt even this would have been seen from the distance. Hidden shooter on standby ? - bad idea for all the aforementioned reasons.

I suppose it would be difficult in the dark. I wasn't suggesting a private firm hire a sharpshooter. I was thinking more along the lines of Public Safety. We'll know more when the timelines are given, but the helicopter idea can't be that far off if he was actually shooting for close to 10 minutes.

 

[vigil617]

I, too, don't know how you would be able to stop someone under the particular circumstances of this one.

I fear, though, that we will see copycats given the degree of mayhem this nutjob was able to inflict. Suddenly, aim is of secondary importance to volume. Dear God.

 

[Ranger17]

I'd be of the thought process that certain shooter situations can be potentially trained for and protected against (schools, churches, etc) where a shooter would be in a 'somewhat' known location and likely nearby.

But someone at such a distance like in this tragedy? With the chaos going on, not sure how effective or safe anyone could be especially at the beginning to take the bad guy out with no collateral damage.

I'd think preventive measures (possibly bag screening in hotels, etc) could be brought up for future discussions though.

Just a very sad situation for all that were involved.

 

[Arik]

Interesting. I didn't see the topic drift. I had hope that some of the many former police-FBI-and military with combat experience would have responded. Maybe they still will.My feeling is that these promoters have been advised by their lawyers not to have any kind of counter sniper presence at these events, for all of the usual list of reasons, which, at least to me, are not credible in the war we are already well into in this country. It should be noted that high officials of all kinds have these teams deployed whenever they appear at gatherings of any size. I think that this event will be the beginning of big change in the U.S., and I don't thing that it will be good.

Way too impractical. How many sniper teams would you need? Look around that area there are lots of big tall buildings and thousands of points to shoot from. And what happens when the private sniper shoots the wrong person.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[BB57]

Interesting. I didn't see the topic drift. I had hope that some of the many former police-FBI-and military with combat experience would have responded. Maybe they still will.My feeling is that these promoters have been advised by their lawyers not to have any kind of counter sniper presence at these events, for all of the usual list of reasons, which, at least to me, are not credible in the war we are already well into in this country. It should be noted that high officials of all kinds have these teams deployed whenever they appear at gatherings of any size. I think that this event will be the beginning of big change in the U.S., and I don't thing that it will be good.

The liability of a promoter hiring what is effectively a counter sniper team would be huge, but there might be some merit to the local police department using events like this as an exercise for their sniper teams.

In this case, snipers placed two or more surrounding buildings covering different sectors probably would have detected the guy when he first broke out a window on the 32nd floor, and if not would have detected the muzzle flashes. He was after all doing some fairly high angle shooting that would have prevented him from staying too far back inside the room. "Open" windows in buildings where the windows don't open will gather attention, and while not readily visible from the ground, they are easier to spot from adjacent buildings.

In addition, had a team been in place on his roof top, the response would have been much faster as they would have been on site and could have entered the building from the top and been directed to specific room by observers on other buildings. Which is to say that pre-positioning officers on all the roof tops in a finite area is another method of quickly engaging a shooter in a high rise building, even if snipers are not used.

I'd much rather see SWAT teams being used this way to maintain proficiency than being used to serve warrants or execute no knock raids to arrest suspects.

---

One challenge however in this type of event is that police snipers differ from military snipers. The engagement range for a military sniper (in other than a DMR role) starts at about 500 yards as anything less tends to increase the risk of detection, with no material increase in first round hit probability.

On the other hand, the average engagement range for a police sniper year to year is around 75-80 yards. The challenge in police sniping is that you're shooting at a 2 square inch target (looking for immediate incapacitation through a hit to the brain stem), often through glass, and often on command. That's just as challenging as shooting a torso sized target at 10 times the range.

But...if you want to use police snipers in a counter sniper role, you'll have to train them for that role, in terms of detecting the target and then engaging him effectively at ranges up to several hundred yards in some interesting wind conditions.

Personally, I think it's a good idea. It's also practical, and cost effective given the shear area that a single team can cover from a roof top.

 

[M29since14]

I guess I disagree with most. I do agree a counter-sniper might not have been much help in this particular situation, but I think there are liable to be some incidents where a counter-sniper could. The USSS wouldn't bother with them if that were not the case. I think counter-sniper presence at events like this will be happening with increasing frequency - and I'm sure it is already going on in certain jurisdictions.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I see a business opportunity here.......Have sniper rifle will travel.
Or for those who can't afford my fee, I'll sell signs that say "Counter Sniper on duty" that the promoters can post conspicously around the venue. I mean how are the bad guys gonna know it's just a sign.
With all due respect I think that's a knee jerk reaction to a sad situation.
If someone is bound damned and determined to do something he/she is going to figure out a way to do it. Period. NOTHING is gonna prevent that. Knee jerk responses got us the '68 gun control act, the "assault weapon ban" and a host of other restrictions that did or will do NOTHING to correct the problem of Crazies. I prefer living in a free (at least mostly so) society with as few restrictions as possible trusting my own awareness to get me through my day. I sure as hell do not want any more knee jerk reactions that ALWAYS come with unintended consequences and in the end really do nothing to solve an issue. Understand this-the promoter is NOT a guarantor of safety of the patrons to such an extraordinary degree. This is almost an "act of God" situation here. If promoters decide to post snipers they are basically assuming responsibility to protect their patrons from snipers now. I think that is a responsibility none would wish to assume since insurance would be impossible to obtain and therefore we would have no more concerts
Pretty soon we will have to undergo a strip search to go grocery shopping for cryin' out loud.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Some thoughts FWTW....................


Doesn't the USCG deploy "snipers" in helicopters to disable boat engines??? Seems like I saw it on one of the History Channels................

It was reported yesterday that the shooter "built platforms" to shoot off of.... back from the windows......didn't I seen that in "American Sniper"...... and one or two other movies???

Rambling .................................

Didn't they try counter-snipers in the original Dirty Harry movie???

What always comes to mind is the old Jack Higgins book where the IRA uses a van (open roof) and a 60 or 85mm mortar to shell 10 Downing St......... how hard would that be for a organized terror group????

The latter three................just books and movies..... but maybe how we are 'training" the crazies.........not to mention video games.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I see a business opportunity here.......Have sniper rifle will travel.


Pretty soon we will have to undergo a strip search to go grocery shopping for cryin' out loud.

Now that's a scary thought!

 

[richardw]

Protecting against an attack on 20,000 people crammed into a stadium is impossible. The need is for planned response with a defensive security plan. Even that will not stop killing and wounding, but it could reduce the casualty rate.

I won't get into how we did it in hot zones, because it would be hard to apply to civilian situations. But based upon my knowledge and experience is a way to assess threat and plan reaction. I am going to use the word sniper. By that term I am referring to a shooter who had undergone the type of training that Marine and Army, and SWAT team snipers receive. Nearly 50% of sniper candidates in the military wash out. Can you imagine hiring civilian snipers to deans in such a situation. Who will qualify them but the rigid standards required? The NRA! Give me a break, that would asking for a continuing series of negligent shootings.

A well trained sniper can cover a very large field of fire, and with the appropriate weapon (50 caliber) can hit almost anything he can see. At a minimum they can keep a bad guy taking cover.

Suppose in Nevada their had been four properly trained snipers in in place with one at each corner of the stadium. That would have given all four a shot at the window. Each sniper would have a spotter to survey a specific zone and a laser pointer to indicate the target position for the sniper. They would be in radio communication with each other.

Once the first shot is fired the spotters is likely to pick up the target quickly in a situation like the environment if Las Vagas. A broken window is easy to spot. A gun fired from is easy to pick up from smoke and or flash. A few seconds later the first rounds from the four snipers guns are suppressing the shooter. If the shooter takes the risk of putting his head up to take a shot in such a scenario, he would be dead.

The Las Vegas shooting showed a well scooped out firing position. My guess is that he did that assessment from inside the stadium well in advance of the incident. He looks around and finds the perfect line of sight to get the best field of fire.

Police departments could do the same type surveys and preindentify the most likely spots a shooter would pick. Like a hotel a couple or a high hill or a tower a couple hundred yards away. Firing diatances for each potential position are recorded for the spotters in advance of their being deployed.

Had such a system been in place in Las Vegas the toll of victims would have been a lot less. The system resembles that the Secret Service uses to protect the President and others.

In we had a pick up several pickup truck full of Cuban soldiers weee headed our way. I set the eight sharpshooters in the platoon into positions on both sides of the road in a V formation so they would not shoot at each other. When the trucks arrives they opened fire. That stopped the trucks and the. The rest of the platoon opened fire. No Marine scathed in any way, but the Cuban had a very bad day.

That action originated with prep,a bing for such situations. The Army and Marine Infantry rides are particularly good at such planning. Our lives often depend upon it.

 

[Mistered]

The USSS wouldn't bother with them if that were not the case.

I think the USSS 'bothers' because who they are protecting might be in a different 'category' than a band.

 

[XAVMECH]

Personal Safety vs. Freedom

I'll accept the risk, and be responsible for evaluating it to ensure an appropriate level of safety, rather than to give up any freedoms that I have. I know we, as a society, will try to do better - but combating terrorism, be it domestic, international, religious, or otherwise, is like "Whack-a-mole".
You've all heard this before: We have to be right in our approach every time - the bad guy needs to get it right only once. When we look at other countries, who have given up first their guns, then their knives, what's next? Should we ban Box-Vans or 1-ton pickups? Maybe, we should give up our spoons or baseball bats.

I prefer to live in a free society that has its risks, and freedoms - where we all share the responsibility to look out for one another as best we can. The reaction that I get from the many foreign visitors that I've dealt with is their amazement at diversity of our country and the individual freedom to pursue our varied life-styles. It's just one reason why I love this country.

Terrorists, of whatever ilk, want to destroy that - to force change in our society. What happened Sunday night in LV hurts our hearts, and we grieve for the victim's and their families, but I believe we must remain true in maintaining our freedom - regardless of risk. I'm not at all pleased or impressed by the amount of inconvenience and intrusion that we've already experienced since 9-11. I certainly don't see the viability of expanding it in any way.

 

[ContinentalOp]

As I said before, security planning is 20/20 hindsight. Lots of ideas have been presented on how to deal with sniper attacks, including the use of counter-snipers. I'm sure public safety officials are trying to work that out as well. But what happens when attackers change their modus operandi? What happens when public safety officials have plans for sniper attacks and then the attacks come in some other, unanticipated form?

Take active shooters at schools, for example. Before Columbine, the response was to contain and wait for SWAT. After Columbine, it became go in NOW! (However, it seems that there are still some agencies using a contain-and-wait approach, in practice if not in principle.) Active shooters would go from room to room, targeting victims. Responses were changed. Advice went from evacuating to locking themselves in their classrooms to avoid secondary attacks. More recent active shooters then started targeting victims before and after classes when teachers and faculty were out and about, widely dispersed.

Airline security is another example. 9/11 resulted in hardened security for airplane cockpits and increased screening and scrutiny at security checkpoints. What happened? Terrorists started attacking public areas at airports.

Terrorists, psychos, whatever label you want to apply to them, may not be the smartest amongst us, but they can be dedicated and focused when it comes to planning. Whatever specific defense we come up with, they'll figure out a way around it.

Obviously, we can't give up. We still have to do what we can to provide security, hopefully without impacting personal freedoms in the process. But I think the problem is that when you start focusing on specific types of attacks and how to prevent or defend against them, you start to lose sight of the big picture. I don't know what the answer is, but I think, realistically, we should focus on more broad-based, widely-applicable approaches that will be (hopefully) effective regardless of the nature of the attack. We can't protect everybody, but we can try and protect as many as we can.

Just my opinion.

 

[Boudiepitbull]

Perhaps the answer lies in the choice of venues and avoiding the "shooting fish in a barrel" tactical situation that corrals spectators in a empty lot surrounded by towering vantage points that offer concealment and unobstructed shooting lines.

Place the music festival in the desert like Burning Man or in an open field like Woodstock...

 

[e3mrk]

Maybe it would be a good idea to have a few designated People with rifles around these events to counter shooters.
How many remember the Texas tower shooter whose head was kept down by people that went to their cars and returned with their rifles and just shot at him until the police arrived ? I'm sure they saved countless lives by their actions.

 

[jimbo728]

I still remember that. Very true.
Jim

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

A ShotSpotter system could of acoustically trianglated the firing location within seconds. A handful of counter snipers could of poured automatic fire onto that spot in less than 60 seconds.

The thing is this guy had a pilots license and his own airplane. The results could of been worse if he had gone kamikaze.

 

[richardw]

Maybe it would be a good idea to have a few designated People with rifles around these events to counter shooters.
How many remember the Texas tower shooter whose head was kept down by people that went to their cars and returned with their rifles and just shot at him until the police arrived ? I'm sure they saved countless lives by their actions.

Invitation to disaster. Hot zone protected by inexperienced riflemen is bad idea. I was shot at too much to not appreciate what it does until you get Used to it. After a time, the sadreneline reaction is controlled. Before that date the survival instinct takes over and you get sloppy.

Less tha 1% of all living Americans have ever been shot at. It is an experience you really want to avoid, and if you train for SD you better train hard under real not faux expert instructors.