Why has it not been mentioned

[oldman45]

A few days ago, NYC Police Officers shot a man 21 times and he still lives. Of course, NYCPD still uses the 9mm.

I also know there are some here that will kill their grandmother if she says anything against the 9mm round. But I wonder if the perp would still be breathing if stuck by 21 rounds of .40 or .45acp.

It seems there would be a lot of blood loss with any round. How come this guy did not bleed out? Instead, he is sitting up talking with hospital staff, family members and such.

 

[PRC74]

Well I was at a shooting about 15-20 years ago. The suspect shot one of our officers and was shot by several other officers in return. The suspect(POS) was hit 30 + times with .40 caliber rounds. He is still alive and walking around today. It is shot placement. It is very hard to kill cockroaches.

 

[BuzzardBilly]

That is why a change is needed.
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[Combat_Diver]

My understanding is that he was hit 24 times but no vital organs or arteries hit. Very lucky to be alive. Don't know what round the NYPD used (used to be limited to FMJ). But this is a reminder that it all about shoot placement.

CD

 

[Texas Star]

Keep in mind that Pope John Paul II was hit about 14 times by a would-be assassin working for the KGB. He also survived.

In the last case I know of where NYPD ventilated a man so thoroughly, he was some African or West Indian who hadn't really done anything wrong. But they shot him umpteen times, and he did die. The problem was at least partially that he didn't communicate well in English. Same thing happened to some poor guy in the UK, who was mistaken for a terrorist.
Seems like they should aim better and fire fewer shots.

And maybe be more sure that they need to shoot at all.

T-Star

 

[sgt.207]

I think they use the Gold Dot 124 grain +p load.

My understanding is that he was hit 24 times but no vital organs or arteries hit. Very lucky to be alive. Don't know what round the NYPD used (used to be limited to FMJ). But this is a reminder that it all about shoot placement.

CD

 

[Bullseye 2620]

My understanding is that he was hit 24 times but no vital organs or arteries hit. Very lucky to be alive. Don't know what round the NYPD used (used to be limited to FMJ). But this is a reminder that it all about shoot placement.

Combat Diver

There was a thread on this yesterday that was deleted in its entirety last night.

The officers in question struck the perp 21 times out of 50 shots fired -- a hit rate of 42%, which is substantially better than the average for this department than has been reported recently.

The NYPD's issue ammunition is 124 grain +P Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points, not ball, launched from either a Glock 19, a Sig 226, or an S&W 5946 all DAO with a 12-pound trigger.

Somewhere, Colonel Cooper is kicking back, grinnin', and mightily resisting the temptation to say "Told ya so!" I personally have never trusted the 9mm round, even the +P HP versions. It will be instructive to read the analysis of this shooting that will come out.


Bullseye

 

[oldman45]

Well I was at a shooting about 15-20 years ago. The suspect shot one of our officers and was shot by several other officers in return. The suspect(POS) was hit 30 + times with .40 caliber rounds. He is still alive and walking around today. It is shot placement. It is very hard to kill cockroaches.

Well, this beats the record that they say is held by the man shot 21 times. It shocks me in both these cases that the person would not bleed out before medical could render aid.

I have seen people get wasp stung several times and they died.

Most of the shootings I have been involved with had the shots being few in number of hits but many being fired. Only had two I investigated where the perp survived .40cal hits.

Now I wonder who actually holds the record for surviving the most hits.

 

[n4zov]

Keep in mind that Pope John Paul II was hit about 14 times by a would-be assassin working for the KGB. He also survived.

In the last case I know of where NYPD ventilated a man so thoroughly, he was some African or West Indian who hadn't really done anything wrong. But they shot him umpteen times, and he did die. The problem was at least partially that he didn't communicate well in English. Same thing happened to some poor guy in the UK, who was mistaken for a terrorist.
Seems like they should aim better and fire fewer shots.

And maybe be more sure that they need to shoot at all.

T-Star

The incident you are referring was the February 4, 1998 shooting of Amadou Dialloxii where four NYPD officers fired 41 shots. Nineteen of those shots hit the subject. Dialloxii was carrying a cell phone and wallet when he was killed. He was a legal immigrant from Guinea and was returning home from work when he was confronted by the officers and shot. The officers were tried for second degree murder and acquitted.

 

[NFrameFred]

Now I wonder who actually holds the record for surviving the most hits.

I seem to remember a Mas Ayoob article from some years back where a biker hopped up on PCP (elephant tranq) took over 30 hits from the 9mm and still did some major mayhem. I believe he finally succumbed to the wounds but some of them were pretty severe and well placed if memory serves. But that kind of drug influence would probably affect most any caliber that didn't short out the central nervous system, that is spine or brain shot.

The "Gangland" series (on A&E ?) is rife with 'bangers showing their scars from all the the times they've been shot and survived. In some locales it's to the point that a lot of these folks are not that deterred by the thought of being shot with a handgun anymore. I think that is the direct result of the proliferation of shootings with 9mm and smaller calibers and drug use. They seem to be believing they're somewhat bullet-proof to handgun rounds.

Time to go back to rounds that start with at least a "4" . . .

 

[Bullseye 2620]

PCP was actually invented by Parke-Davis Pharmaceuticals in 1926 as an anesthetic. It is dangerous because its action produces not only hallucinations, but because of its indirect activation of the endorphin system, makes the individual relatively immune to pain. This is why there are so many reports over the years of perps on PCP being shot multiple times and yet still inflicting wounds -- lethal and otherwise -- on police officers.

This is my concern. The game has changed out there. I am thinking that because of renewed concern about the 9mm, guns like the new FN 45 are going to be seeing a lot of sales.


Bullseye

 

[oldman45]

I seem to remember a Mas Ayoob article from some years back where a biker hopped up on PCP (elephant tranq) took over 30 hits from the 9mm and still did some major mayhem. I believe he finally succumbed to the wounds but some of them were pretty severe and well placed if memory serves. But that kind of drug influence would probably affect most any caliber that didn't short out the central nervous system, that is spine or brain shot.

.

You bring out an interesting point and one I have heard discussed both ways.

I have been taught that a person on drugs have a more weakened system and therefore more easily stopped in aggression and more prone to death from wounds. It has also been taught that some drugs cause a person to be stronger and more immune to wound damage.

Which is likely the most accurate I guess would depend on the person and the drug. Personally I have seen two cases where people survived a chest wound at close range from 12 ga shotgun blast using 00 buckshot. Neither were on drugs but both were large individuals. The flip side is I have seen a man on drugs die from a knee injury sustained when he was taken down in a foot chase. His immune system was so depleted from drugs that he was too weak to recover from the infection that the knee injury caused.

I do not want to be shot by any caliber weapon but if I had my choice, I would rather be hit by a 9mm round than a .45acp or such size.

 

[OKFC05]

If you want to get really paranoid about stopping someone with a handgun, read about the experiences in the Phillipines. Everyone has heard about the problems with the puny Colt .38 round, but even when they brought the old .45 Colt revolvers out of storage, there was little improvement in the knockdown rate.

In fact, the sentries with .30 caliber rifles were instructed to shoot low and try to hit the pelvis, as drug-hopped Moros with machetes were taking rifle shots to the chest and still killing the sentries. Nothing short of breaking them down would stop them soon enough.

The search for the "perfect" handgun cartridge and bullet implies that there is a one-shot-stop guarantee. If it exists, it has yet to be proven, although it is argued ad nauseum.
Shot placement, shot placement, and be prepared to keep shooting seems to be the sensible approach with any practical defense handgun.

 

[GatorFarmer]

They used to pull the bullets out of .30-40 Krag rounds and load them in backwards to make dum-dum rounds. I don't know if that worked any better or not, but at the time it was thought that it did..

People have been shot in the head with 7.92x57mm rounds and lived, same with .30-06 and most things short of a .50 caliber. My great uncle took a couple of hits from a German Mg42 during the break out at St Lo and didn't die until a little while back (unrelated causes, ie old age).

Humans are tough, adaptive and hard to kill.

 

[slowburninsteve]

Just aim for the eye socket. Works every time.

 

[rjroberts]

.338 Lapua pistol.

 

[MERV5-5505]

"Humans are tough, adaptive and hard to kill."


Very true. I think some really interesting points have been made here. I do realize there are some cases that paint the picture that: a perp who lives a 110% B.S lifestyle, offering nothing to society, except for a lifetime of predation & crime, can take a mortar hit to the brain case and only need some I.V fluids & neosporin. While on the other hand: a good-egg LE officer with 3 more days until retirement dies from an infected splinter.

Of course, the truth lays somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. I will say, that although some have stated otherwise, (and I am not disputing their statements) I have never had a paitent that lived thru a 12 gauge shotgun wound. It was my experience that even "misses" caused lethal damage, (my best guess to load was 00 buckshot.) The only thing to do for most long gun GSW's is to hose out the back of the ambulance, restock your kit and get back to work.

Interesting post...thank you for it.

 

[Mule88]

I embalmed a guy about 25 yrs ago that was in a police shoot out outside a bar. This was on the news and going to work id pass the bar he was shot at. The furthest shot couldnt have been more than 10 yds or so. There must have been 8 cops shooting it out with this guy if not more. Im not sure if they were useing .38's or 9mm at the time but after all the shooting the guy only had 13 shots in him from all the rounds fired and from what i could tell only 2 chest wounds that appeared to be the fatal shots. he was shot from his upper arms, legs even had shots in his feet. My point being a human body can take alot of shots if there not placed properly. Ive also seen several one shot kills...shot placement is king!

 

[ldausmc1369]

Shot Placement

One well aimed 3" 12 gauge 1 oz shotgun slug! One well aimed 3" 12 gauge 000 buckshot round! Takes the fight out of most creatures and cretins that ambulate on this planet!

 

[ladder13]

Now I wonder who actually holds the record for surviving the most hits.

Tony Montana