Why has it not been mentioned

[TxShooter]

Man, I sure do like you but we are not dealing with "mass exodus likely has more to do" but rather with facts.

Show me one, even recent, study comparing calibers that gives any advantage to the 9mm.

Almost everything is based on some proactive study. The speed limit on a roadway is based on the road width, traffic, commercial entry, curves and signals. The size of a traffic light and placement is based on the same things.

Now let's consider your "likely" theme. A 9mm round is cheaper to shoot so therefore a department with 600 guys is going to go through hundreds of thousands of rounds each year. Budgets are tight so why are they "likely" to buy a larger more expensive round?

The guns, at any price are not going to be swapped evenly for the old 9mm weapons. SPD had to pay $330 each plus the trade in. I doubt that could be considered "practically giving away" or even close. The depts across the US went to guns that gave the officers some advantage.

Now to some history lessons for you young starters. Back during the 70's, the perps were buying the foreign 9mm guns with high capacity mags like the Mac 10 and others. Officers on the streets were carrying larger calibers but with only six rounds and they felt outgunned since most cops are not good shots. Departments went to the guns that worked the best while having the large capacity mags. This meant a 9mm as that was all there was in quality products at the time.

With some experience in street use, they found the 9mm to be lacking. A new gun with a 17 round mag was now available called a .40 cal. It was topping the charts in efficiency and stopping power. Depts went to it in droves. Now there are double stack mags for the .45acp and some depts are going there. True, there are some departmental holdouts like NYCPD (although I am told this is slowly being changed) due to budget concerns. Having several thousand officers takes millions of dollars that NYC does not have and taxpayers are not willing to fund. LAPD is also changing over but the cost is to the taxpayer and it takes time for a complete change over.

Again, those defending the 9mm likely only has a 9mm to use and that is fine. For those with options, they will carry a larger caliber. For me, with a room full of guns, I can use any caliber since I have multiples of just about each caliber but I chose the .45acp as my primary carry, a .40 as a second choice, a .357 mag revolver as a third and the 9mm as a fourth. My decision is based on street experience, studies and seeing the experiences of others first hand.

Now when are we going to lunch again?

I should know better that to enter a caliber debate...

What studies would those be that point to the 9mm being insufficient as a service caliber?

If SPD had to pay $330 plus trade in their old guns, they got screwed. If I remember right they went to Glock 22s. Individual officer price is $398, so the department, particularly on bid, could beat that by a longshot. IIRC, at one time Glock mentioned in their armorer's course than the actual production cost per pistol was around $75.

Friends within DPS have told me that the agency got a great deal to replace their P220 .45s and P226 and P228 9mms with P226 and P229 .357s, then a few years later to swap to the DAK trigger system. Virginia State Police got a similar offer...SIG gave them a better deal on new P229 DAKs rather than just doing a spring replacement on their DA/SA P229s. Back when Louisiana State Police's FTU first started looking at Glock as an issue pistol, SIG bypassed the FTU and went directly to the Colonel, swapping the old P220s for brand new ones at no cost to the state. Such deals aren't exactly rare.

What other countries have dropped the 9mm as a service cartridge? The British military still uses the SIG P226 and Browning Hi-Power, and most police forces there still use the Glock 17, P226, or other 9mm autos. The New Zealand army uses the P226, while their police carry the G17. In Australia the Federal Police and Tasmania carry the G17, most other forces bought the G22 or S&W M&P .40 but for the most part they only shoot themselves...probably a tiein to two hours of firearms training a year and having to leave their guns at the station when offduty. The military there still uses the 9mm in a mix of Browning, Glock, and HK pistols, along with the MP5 subgun.

I wasn't aware that the Germans considered the .45 superior, since the Bundeswehr continued to use the P1 9mm up until recently when they went with the HK USP. Following the Munich Olympics massacre, all of the new German service pistols were in 9mm as well.

We have a pretty wide open carry policy. When I qualified I used a G17, a P226 in .357 SIG, and my new P226R in 9mm. For now I carry the 226R both on and off duty, and haven't given it a second thought. I'm confident in the pistol, my ability to place my shots accurately, and the 124 gr. Gold Dots that it's loaded with. I could've just as easily slipped a .40 barrel in my P226 or used my Colt 1991A1 or P220 .45s, but I felt that the 9mm's shootability was an advantage. We have to provide our own duty and practice ammo, so ammo price did have a slight influence...at the moment I've got around 2K rounds of 9mm, 500 of .45, and maybe 200 in .357 SIG. Since I don't reload, I can afford to shoot the 9mm a lot more than the other two, without sacrificing much if any performance.

As has been said before, all pistol calibers are weak in the grand scheme of things, and there are too many variables involved to say that one caliber would've worked when another failed. The best course of action is to pick something that you shoot well and are confident in, and keep shooting until the threat has stopped...whether that takes one shot, or the whole magazine.

 

[amd6547]

Have your father study history. The Germans were very vocal about their 9mm Lugers being inferior to the US .45 and history has not been kind toward the 9mm used in other countries. Visit other countries and you will seldom see a 9mm being carried by their military or police.

If the 9mm was such a great thing, it would still be in use in other countries. While not having seen it in legal documents, I have been told by several that the 9mm NATO round is being phased out as well. But doing so is getting a lot of opposition from the humanitarian groups due to the damage newer rounds cause to those shot. Studies do not back the 9mm as being effective.

Oldman45, I'm afraid I can't tell my Father to study history, other than in my dreams, as he passed away several years ago. But, he did LIVE history.
You are utterly incorrect that other countries seldom use 9mm. Even our "friends" the Russians have adapted a new 9mm pistol.

 

[Centenniel]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

 

[Harrison]

Good one.

I will add that shot placement is difficult a best in a fire fight.It's not like they are gonna stand still when their being shot up.Also consider the leo's have to watch out for bystanders.

DG

A 12# trigger can't help accurate shot placement much either. If the LEO's need that heavy a trigger to be safe, then they need more range time and training.

 

[oldman45]

I should know better that to enter a caliber debate...

What studies would those be that point to the 9mm being insufficient as a service caliber?

If SPD had to pay $330 plus trade in their old guns, they got screwed. If I remember right they went to Glock 22s. Individual officer price is $398, so the department, particularly on bid, could beat that by a longshot. IIRC, at one time Glock mentioned in their armorer's course than the actual production cost per pistol was around $75.

Friends within DPS have told me that the agency got a great deal to replace their P220 .45s and P226 and P228 9mms with P226 and P229 .357s, then a few years later to swap to the DAK trigger system. Virginia State Police got a similar offer...SIG gave them a better deal on new P229 DAKs rather than just doing a spring replacement on their DA/SA P229s. Back when Louisiana State Police's FTU first started looking at Glock as an issue pistol, SIG bypassed the FTU and went directly to the Colonel, swapping the old P220s for brand new ones at no cost to the state. Such deals aren't exactly rare.

What other countries have dropped the 9mm as a service cartridge? The British military still uses the SIG P226 and Browning Hi-Power, and most police forces there still use the Glock 17, P226, or other 9mm autos. The New Zealand army uses the P226, while their police carry the G17. In Australia the Federal Police and Tasmania carry the G17, most other forces bought the G22 or S&W M&P .40 but for the most part they only shoot themselves...probably a tiein to two hours of firearms training a year and having to leave their guns at the station when offduty. The military there still uses the 9mm in a mix of Browning, Glock, and HK pistols, along with the MP5 subgun.

I wasn't aware that the Germans considered the .45 superior, since the Bundeswehr continued to use the P1 9mm up until recently when they went with the HK USP. Following the Munich Olympics massacre, all of the new German service pistols were in 9mm as well.

We have a pretty wide open carry policy. When I qualified I used a G17, a P226 in .357 SIG, and my new P226R in 9mm. For now I carry the 226R both on and off duty, and haven't given it a second thought. I'm confident in the pistol, my ability to place my shots accurately, and the 124 gr. Gold Dots that it's loaded with. I could've just as easily slipped a .40 barrel in my P226 or used my Colt 1991A1 or P220 .45s, but I felt that the 9mm's shootability was an advantage. We have to provide our own duty and practice ammo, so ammo price did have a slight influence...at the moment I've got around 2K rounds of 9mm, 500 of .45, and maybe 200 in .357 SIG. Since I don't reload, I can afford to shoot the 9mm a lot more than the other two, without sacrificing much if any performance.

As has been said before, all pistol calibers are weak in the grand scheme of things, and there are too many variables involved to say that one caliber would've worked when another failed. The best course of action is to pick something that you shoot well and are confident in, and keep shooting until the threat has stopped...whether that takes one shot, or the whole magazine.

I agree there is not a perfect caliber. No question. However, I read about every government bulletin on testing with guns, ammo, ballistics and field experiences. It helps me in court to either present or refute the issue of injury or guilt. Within the last week, I read an evaluation that gave the history of the 9mm and I am going back to locate that paper. It listed many agencies in foreign countries that gave up the 9mm in favor of other heavier calibers.

I also have written proof that some departments said to use the 9mm has already gone to the.40 or .45acp.

Now as to SPD and their gun buy, they re-buy about every four years. On the last buy, each officer was allowed to buy their old Glock 22 for $225 and the City worked out a deal with the distributor to pay either $330 per gun (buying 700 guns gets a discount) plus trade or pay almost $400 per new gun. Understand the City made a good deal for each gun the officers bought. They also got a good deal on the purchase price with the options the new guns came with. I already have my name in for one of the used guns during the next trade in group in three more years, if I am still alive. I have never heard any complaints from officers that were using the 9mm about going up. All were glad it happened. The person making that decision is now deceased but he told me immediately after it was a done deal that he had researched it over a year and documented the findings well before presenting the decision.

But I am going to dive into some research on my own and will post the sources here so people can read it for themselves. However I know that some are so die hard devoted to the 9mm that they would kill their grandmother if she said they had to change. Once they get used to a larger caliber, they are happier than ever. I also enjoy shooting 9mm weapons but I do so without any blinders on realizing it is not a good round for many applications.

That said, if someone has a 9mm they want to sell, I would entertain buying more just for my collection. I shoot them several times a year and it is fun shooting.

FWIW: Today I found a circular that ran back in July, 2006, from a local store selling 9mm ammo. It was Winchester and it sold for $7.99 a box for 50 rounds. But it will not be that cheap anytime soon.

 

[RufusG]

Once they get used to a larger caliber, they are happier than ever.

You are either a comic genius or oblivious to condescencion.

 

[ditrina]

Tony Montana

Why am I NOT Suprised...

 

[Kanewpadle]

I disagree and so will any of the studies you can come up with.

Not many have been attacked by a car door but a lot have been shot at from a car with a door. When the shooter is using an open window and a victim is shooting at the mass, which is the entire door due to a head shot on a moving vehicle being exremely difficult and watching their bullets not penetrate the door skin, then the caliber makes a difference. The majority on here or any other site has not been in an aggressive mode. It is disappointing to see someone drive from a crime scene due to not being hit.

Proficiency always helps but proficiency goes out the window during stressful situations. The bad guys shoot both first and back. Examine the distances of most shooting confrontations and you will see they are less than 20 feet. Also you will see that hits are rare at that distance. Yet the shock value of being hit anywhere with larger calibers offer a distinct advantage.

As to .38spl, they are good guns and their ballistics are improved over the 9mm. I own some Wondernines and have carried them while wanting a larger gun. The FBI spent millions on studying the effects of various calibers and they came up with the .40 or .45acp being best. Other groups made pricey studies with the same outcome.

In a pinch, I would take and use a .22 rimfire if that was all I had. Those defending the 9mm has that right and likely good reasons but those having used them in an aggressive mannor will not praise them at all. Yes the 9mm is a nice weapon, low recoil, cheap ammo (not by much though), and flat shooting. But it is not a good defensive or aggressive gun during a firefight just as Corvair is not as good in a collision as a Cadillac.

I don't know where in the world you come up with this stuff. It's all baloney.

Shot Placement With A Service Caliber Gun Is All That Matters!

And as far as shooting at someone in a vehicle, ever hear of "COVER"?

Your logic is twenty years old.

I'm sick and tired of people that think they somehow have an "edge" just because that carry something that starts with a 4.

I carry a 40. Sometimes a 45. And sometimes a 9MM. I don't feel under gunned by any means.

They each have their pros and cons. Knowing how to use one of them is more important.

Time for some of you nay sayers to put up or shut up. You show me documented proof that the 9MM is insufficient in EXPERIENCED hands.