Really, and what's your background? Have you ever investigated a homicide scene? Ofcouse no PD would ever issue a 22 but I know several officers who carried 22s as backups and as off duty firearms. What I recommend to anyone for home defense is to utilize what you shoot well and are comfortable with, if it's a 22 so be it. You go on to say that the 22 LR is a favorite of hit men only on TV, I'd say those TV shows reflect that accurately. I respectfully disagree with you.
Why I chose the 15-22 over the 522
- Thread starter hey15-22
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Really, and what's your background? Have you ever investigated a homicide scene? Ofcouse no PD would ever issue a 22 but I know several officers who carried 22s as backups and as off duty firearms. What I recommend to anyone for home defense is to utilize what you shoot well and are comfortable with, if it's a 22 so be it. You go on to say that the 22 LR is a favorite of hit men only on TV, I'd say those TV shows reflect that accurately. I respectfully disagree with you.
Majorlk
Member
We'll agree to disagree, then.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Kayback
Member
Cops don't always know what is best. Many of them aren't even "gun people".
5.56mm is a marginal round. Think about it, in the hunting world it is used for 30-40lbs animals. Not 200lbs aggressive attackers. The .22LR? It is a mouse gun. Literally. Look how many people use it for squirrels.
Even if hitmen do use .22LR (here in Africa it is 7.65 Tokarev, 9x18mm Makerov, 9x19mm Para or full auto assault rifle fire) a contact shot with a .22 to an unsuspecting victim is very different than shooting an aggressive, motivated attacker.
Look at the DC sniper event. Most were single shot kills with a 5.56mm. Unsuspecting victims. Look at the reports of the 5.56mm being a bad combat round and how many times people need to be shot with it to put them down.
A .22 can kill. So can a glass of water. You are in more danger of drowning in the sea though.
I personally prefer erring on the side of having enough. A .22 is not that. It is better than nothing, but I'd want something like a 9x19mm equivalent, a 5.56mm equivalent or a 12 guage equivalent.
There is a reason that is what is used by most armies.
KBK
5.56mm is a marginal round. Think about it, in the hunting world it is used for 30-40lbs animals. Not 200lbs aggressive attackers. The .22LR? It is a mouse gun. Literally. Look how many people use it for squirrels.
Even if hitmen do use .22LR (here in Africa it is 7.65 Tokarev, 9x18mm Makerov, 9x19mm Para or full auto assault rifle fire) a contact shot with a .22 to an unsuspecting victim is very different than shooting an aggressive, motivated attacker.
Look at the DC sniper event. Most were single shot kills with a 5.56mm. Unsuspecting victims. Look at the reports of the 5.56mm being a bad combat round and how many times people need to be shot with it to put them down.
A .22 can kill. So can a glass of water. You are in more danger of drowning in the sea though.
I personally prefer erring on the side of having enough. A .22 is not that. It is better than nothing, but I'd want something like a 9x19mm equivalent, a 5.56mm equivalent or a 12 guage equivalent.
There is a reason that is what is used by most armies.
KBK
I know we have wondered a little of topic in this thread and ofcourse we can agree to disagree. The moderators link to this very interesting article is a good read.
Kayback
Member
I love his conclusions. Handguns suck, use a rifle.
Never a truer word spoken.
KBK
Never a truer word spoken.
KBK
Martimus
US Veteran
The thing about .22lr is shot placement. If you are skilled (and accurate) enough shooting it then it has the potential to be a lethal round.
A good sniper has the time and the data available to them that they can use most rounds in a lethal capacity. In 2002 a Canadian Army corporal used a bullet designed to be shot out of a machine gun to kill a Taliban combatant at more than 2,500 yards.
http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-rifles-tactical-tac-50.php
And Israeli snipers used a suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifle in a limited role.
http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm
Is it as lethal as a .500S&W between the eyes? I don't think so... but in the right hands anything is possible!
A good sniper has the time and the data available to them that they can use most rounds in a lethal capacity. In 2002 a Canadian Army corporal used a bullet designed to be shot out of a machine gun to kill a Taliban combatant at more than 2,500 yards.
http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-rifles-tactical-tac-50.php
And Israeli snipers used a suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifle in a limited role.
http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm
Is it as lethal as a .500S&W between the eyes? I don't think so... but in the right hands anything is possible!
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Kayback
Member
But are your hands the right hands? Just because some super elite unit can do it does not mean anyone can.
There are also very strict places where the Israeli's use the .22. IIRC it is during protest marches when colatteral damage limitation is the criteria to be met. They specifically use the .22 because of its low lethality.
The Israelis also use bolt action slug shotguns as sniper rifles.
No one is saying .22 can't kill. It just isn't the best round to use.
There are also very strict places where the Israeli's use the .22. IIRC it is during protest marches when colatteral damage limitation is the criteria to be met. They specifically use the .22 because of its low lethality.
The Israelis also use bolt action slug shotguns as sniper rifles.
No one is saying .22 can't kill. It just isn't the best round to use.
Martimus
US Veteran
I think my point was that it CAN be used as a lethal round.
.50bmg may not be the best round to use either... and we know that it's also been used successfully. As a firearms instructor once told me "the goal is to take the BG down and keep him down".
And in that regard I think a .22 has potential to do that. I personally can't imagine trying to wrap myself around a corner with a 16-inch or 18-inch barrel... but if that's what is available to me then so be it.
Majorlk
Member
There are two kinds of people who talk about Self Defense shooting: those who make sure they have the proper tool to do the job right the first time and those who say, "if that's all I have, I'll make do."
The latter often winds up on the losing side of the encounter - dead. Your life; your choice.
Kayback
Member
Thats one reason I'm always amazed when people say they choose a shotgun for home defence because it is cheap. Is that how you value your life? And I know many people who if they do select a rifle balk at the expense of a decent one, or one that has been customized.( I,m a big supporter of SBR home defense guns).
Martimus
US Veteran
My friend...the "proper tool" is a HIGHLY subjective thing! I have pistols distributed in safes throughout my house. That said, if someone surprises me in a part of the home where I don't have a pistol, you can darn well bet that I'll use whatever is available to defend myself. If that is a rifle, so be it! If that is a shotgun, so be it! If that is a 2x4, so be it!
Some of us don't have unlimited funds to stash weapons everywhere in our respective homes. Having families also limits options since weapons can't always be left unsecured. People who limit their options often also find themselves on the losing side of an encounter.
There are two kinds of people who talk about self defense online. Those arm chair commandos who read a lot of magazines and gleen the internet for their information but have never fired a shot in self defense. Then there are people who have had to actually use a firearm in self defense. Reading about it and doing it are two different things. Even with police officers only 3% ever have to fire their firearms in self defense over their careers. The same statistic holds true for the various branches of the military. The best advice I ever received was from an academy range instructor who had survived 7 gunfights during his career. That advice was to train, train, train with whatever you carry. Train until it's an extension of your body. He didn't care if it was a 22 or a 45, he surmised if you are proficient with your firearms of choice calibre didn't matter. The quote "a hit with a 22 is better than a miss from a 45" makes sense. True a hit with a 45 would be even better but my point is a 22 in trained hands even by an ignorant homeowner, will get the job done.
Imagine unleashing on an attacking home invader with an M&P15-22, I submit that you'd win that fight.
Imagine unleashing on an attacking home invader with an M&P15-22, I submit that you'd win that fight.
thacheese
Member
I would definitely agree proficiency more important than caliber.
Gopher Slayer
Member
I can drive a screw in a board with a hammer, but I would rather use a drill.
Just because a .22lr can stop someone doesn't mean it's the best option. I don't need an instructor to tell me that. When it comes to protecting my family, I don't want something that CAN do the job with years of experience, I want something that WILL do the job no matter who has to use it.
hkyplr
Member
I agree with you completely. I was going to post the question, how many ppl in this thread have been forced to defend themselves with a firearm in the face of an aggressive attacker? Then I saw this post and it is a good post.
hkyplr
Member
I am not sure of the type of weapon that will get the job done by someone with no training.
Gopher Slayer
Member
There's training, and then there's getting familiar with the firearm.
A 12 guage pump is pretty darn easy to manipulate. I took my sister out shooting. She knew how to use it and it didn't take an instructor or "training". Just a few pointers.
Kayback
Member
There is a large difference between a square range and a two way one.
I am magic with a shotgun. Like the lady in Kill Bill 2 I'm a surgeon with one. They are my favourite toy. In competition the other day I ran a stock Winchestet 1897 pump and was only a couple of splits off the winning semi auto. I've still messed up the pump and the loading. That was just under the stress of competition.
It is much harder to mess up a self loading rile. Put some thought into the setup and you'll have a more user friendly system.
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