Why is it called the .357 Magnum? UPDATED 05OCT24 Best(?) answer #31

[Doc44]

Elmer Keith to D. B. Wesson in 1935..."you are going to have one hell of a demand for this gun in 44 caliber". Also, Phil Sharpe tested a .44 Sharpe Magnum along with his .38 Sharpe Magnum. It was a 242 grain hollow point at 1150 fps muzzle velocity. We could have had the 44 Magnum in 1935 . Now that would have been something!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

IIRC when it was introduced in 1935 the Registered Magnum sold for $60.00-a month's pay for many-if they had a job.
Also part of the advertising campaign was because of its power the .357 was recommended for men of larger and more muscular physique.

 

[Neumann]

I understand that police needed a more powerful cartridge to penetrate automobiles, in the age of Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and others. The round is quite manageable in a full-sized revolver. It didn't hurt its popularity that Patton adopted one along with his Colt SA.

I haven't fired .38 SPL, including wadcutters, in over 50 years. You gotta' shoot what you carry.

 

[mtgianni]

Calling it something other than 38 magnum should have prevented many from wanting to rebore their old M&P's.

 

[rct269]

Go on..................

I thought you'd never ask!!

Okay---in the beginning:

Truth be known, I can't speak to the real beginning simply because I don't have any reference material from the beginning----------so we'll go from along the way.

Along the way starts in 1925---thereabouts.

In 1925, the muzzle velocity of a 158 grain .38 Special round was 858 fps. (The 158 grain round is chosen because that's the only one they had at the time---or at least the only one I have data on--and it comes from a S&W catalog.)

Okay---then, at some other point along the way, that round was downloaded. I don't know when, or why, but I know what it is today---755 fps.

Then---our salvation--HALLELUJAH!!!!--- today's + P version: 890 fps.

Let's see now---we start off at 858, drop to 755, and then go all the way back up to 890---WOW!!!!

It is at this point we should probably say a few words about fishing tackle. Most folks will probably tell you fishing tackle is made to catch fish. I will tell you it's made to sell to fishermen. The analogy here is +P came to be following the realization by the ammo companies that there were A BUNCH of concealed carry permits being issued across the country. The more astute among those observers said, "You know what?!! I'll bet we could make a ton of money if we came up with an uploaded product---put it back to about where it was before it wasn't, give it a catchy name, and sell it to these newly minted gunfighters---at an appropriately increased price of course!"

And damned if it didn't work!!

Of course that was quickly followed by "New and Improved" guns---those "Rated for +P"------------never mind those not rated for +P will do just fine with it!! And that, of course, is because these ammunition folks' Momma's didn't raise no dumb kids; and they know full well if their product damages anybody's property or injures a user, those sneaky lawyers out there are going to sue the pants off of them---AND they're going to win those suits without even breaking a sweat!!

Thanks for asking!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

IIRC when it was introduced in 1935 the Registered Magnum sold for $60.00-a month's pay for many-if they had a job.
Also part of the advertising campaign was because of its power the .357 was recommended for men of larger and more muscular physique.

The rather interesting--or telling---maybe even shocking thing about that $60 price tag is it cost them $17 to make the gun!!

Well, they needed the money, dammit---and you can't blame them for trying----especially because it worked!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[S&W ucla]

Elmer Keith's part

Phil Sharpe had a lot to do with the .357's development as did many others. Elmer Keith's part in the development of the 357 Magnum, this is what he said in "SIXGUNS". "Next we have the .357 Magnum Smith & Wesson cartridge. I worked with Doug Wesson on this development and sent him the first Keith bullets used in developing the load." S&W sent him an early prototype for testing and he published an article in the April? 1935 "AMERICAN RIFLEMAN".

I know what S&W said on the invoice (below )when they sent him his 4" 1950 Target.
"Mr. Keith.......assisted in the development of the .357 Magnum cartridge."

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Legend has it that Elmer Keith blew up more than one pistol in developing the .357mag round.

I bet he said some adult words afterwards...............

Never read that in any of his writing. Must be some more lying legend. He blew up three revolvers that I am aware of and possibly one more . I know he had two Colt SAA .45 Colt's let go on him and the pot metal break top that he was asked to shoot for someone else . I think there was a third SAA in .45 that he just cracked the barrel on but I could be confusing two versions of the same blow up . Somebody may have blown up some revolvers developing the .357 Magnum but Elmer was not one of them.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

There is only evidence of one revolver that Elmer Keith blew up, and that was a .45 Colt Single Action Army.

Elmer Keith had nothing directly to do with the .357 Magnum. It was a joint development of Smith & Wesson, Winchester and Phillip B. Sharpe. There is a full chapter devoted to the .357 Magnum in "Complete Guide to Handloading" written by Phillip B. Sharpe. Buy a copy if you really want to know the history of the cartridge and revolver!

The bottom line is the cartridge was called the .357 Magnum because Major Daniel B. Wesson, president of S&W at the time of its development, named it that! The explanation of the case being large for caliber, like a magnum of Champagne, has been around for a long time and is likely his motivation for the name.

Three for sure and maybe a fourth. Two Colt SAA's in .45 Colt and maybe a third , with his reloads. A break top that belonged to a friend with factory ammo supplied by the friend. The SAA's caused him to quit the .45 Colt for the thicker cylinder walls of the .44 Special. The break top caused him to swear off on anything cheap. The first .45 was the one that busted the cylinder and blew the top strap on a balcony of the room he was staying in. The second and maybe a third was due to using a 300 grain 45-90 bullet sized to .454 ahead of a heavy dose of #80 . It blew the loading gate off cutting Elmer's thumb and cracked the forcing cone in three places. I think there was one other involving the same bullet cracking a forcing cone but am not 100% certain as it may be the same gun just told different. All are from Elmer's writing , not legends someone else started.

Elmer supplied Wesson his bullet for the .357 Magnum and they actually used a hacked up version of it ,a modified Sharpe bullet based on Elmer's bullet . I think Elmer's part in developing the .357 Magnum was more in his work on the .38-44 loads.

 

[Doc44]

Elmer Keith was sent .357 Magnum, Club Gun Serial Number 0362, in July 1935. The gun was a test revolver that had been heavily used. I believe he published his experiences with the new cartridge and how it compared to his heavy .44 caliber loads in the American Rifleman later that year. While Elmer praised the new cartridge and revolver, his first choice was always in .44 caliber. Those of you who have purchased, "THE SMITH & WESSON MAGNUM EDITION", can see two great photos of Elmer Keith's .38/44 Outdoorsman used to develop heavy loads in .38 caliber on pages 10 and 11.

Bill

 

[RM Vivas]

Phil Sharpe had a lot to do with the .357's development as did many others. Elmer Keith's part in the development of the 357 Magnum, this is what he said in "SIXGUNS". "Next we have the .357 Magnum Smith & Wesson cartridge. I worked with Doug Wesson on this development and sent him the first Keith bullets used in developing the load." S&W sent him an early prototype for testing and he published an article in the April? 1935 "AMERICAN RIFLEMAN".

I know what S&W said on the invoice (below )when they sent him his 4" 1950 Target.
"Mr. Keith.......assisted in the development of the .357 Magnum cartridge."

I was just reading some correspondence between S&W and Keith regarding bullet shape and the Keith bullet.

Keith was a little bitter that his design bullet had been slightly modified and the "keith" monicker lost.

I'll have to pull up the letter and see if I can post a copy. He sounds a bit put off by the matter.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[colt_saa]

I understand that police needed a more powerful cartridge to penetrate automobiles, in the age of Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and others. The round is quite manageable in a full-sized revolver. It didn't hurt its popularity that Patton adopted one along with his Colt SA.

I haven't fired .38 SPL, including wadcutters, in over 50 years. You gotta' shoot what you carry.

Lieut. Col. G.S. Patton Jr. ordered his 357 Magnum revolver just 5 months after J. Edgar received the First Registered Magnum

I realize this is a bit of thread drift, but it amazes me that as America was just emerging from the Great Depression there was such a high demand for this very expensive revolver(so high that the Factory could not keep up).

As you will note in the order form above, this was priced at the exorbitant sum of $48 which included any Military discounts that were offered at the time. You might also have noticed that the price was approved of by DBW himself. That price is roughly 10% of what an individual's annual income was in 1935

Even back in the olden days, Smith & Wesson was making errors on their records. This carbon copy of the acknowledgement letter regarding the Lieut. Col.'s order mistakenly lists the revolver as having an 8" barrel

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

In "Sixguns" Elmer writes apropos of reloading:
"Somebody will think, hell he eliminated a few grains to get it into print so I'll just add a few grains and get his real load. Anyone doing that WILL get a real load-and most likely a new gun as well."

 

[JimFr]

. . . . .He sounds a bit put off by the matter.

Best,
RM Vivas

He was also vehemently “put off” when Lyman CHANGED his semi wad cutter bullet mould to have round-bottomed grease grooves, when his design called for square-bottomed grooves.
Lyman said . . . .and rightly so . . . .this change was to improve bullet release from the mould blocks.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Don't have any bullet release problem with my square groove moulds .

 

[rwsmith]

Anybody load for....

The term "magnum" is a champagne term. I had heard that maybe it was the president (?) of S&W who was a champagne conniseur? Magnum is the next bottle size above a fifth (750ml).

...the .358 Midas?

 

[rwsmith]

Well......

Yup- I toned-down the quote for the censors...

Well Poop. There goes another one.

 

[Truckman]

...the .358 Midas?

The .381 Keg......Ben

 

[rwsmith]

I think that it is now.....

Not to change the subject, but the biggest scam in the ammunition world is "+P".

Ralph Tremaine

Before everybody got so soft there was 'standard' loading and +P that was a 'stiffer' load. Now you can hardly tell the difference in bought ammunition. I remember many years ago I was shooting .38s at the outdoor range and as a couple of guys were walking off, one said, "He's shooting +Ps now." The difference was that obvious.

 

[rwsmith]

Of course we all know.......

....that unlike the boring rest of the world, there is absolutely nothing 'standard' about American naming conventions. The designation can hang on any of a dozen parameters, then to make everything perfectly clear, there is a catchy name attached. Some examples:

Powermag, Action Express, Avenger, Bull Dog, Bushwhacker, Supermag, Gyrojet.

And rifles:

Bee, Hornet, Badger, Mach IV, Zipper, Spitfire, Fury, Wolverine, Edge, Buckhammer, Hushpuppy, Alaskan, Beowulf, Thunder Saber, Tyrannosaur.

VERY few metric designations are creative, like Grendel and Shooting Time Westerner. Probably American origin.