Why is the 38 Smith & Wesson Single Action, 3rd Model (Model of 1891) So Scarce?

[Modelof1891]

1891 .38 SA 3rd Model Revolvers

Since there were only a few over 28,000 frames made for this model and the First Model Single Shot. We do see a larger number of the Single Shots as opposed the revolver on this frame.

I have found a couple over the years. I enjoy seeking the "hard to find" models and really get excited when I luck up on a combo set.

I have a true love for the 1891's and the First Model Single Shot. I will pick up a second model single shot from time to time but had rather have the "Modelof91" 3rd Model .38 SA Revolver.


Here are a few to view and I hope you enjoy these as much as I do!!

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[mmaher94087]

And there you have it. We now know who has them all. Mike #283

 

[Modelof1891]

Well now Mike, I don't even have 1% of them yet. Go easy on me!!

 

[Modelof1891]

Bumped TTT for research with other like post.

 

[lbf15e]

S&W 1891 / 3rd SA Club Info Request

This post has some awesome info and I found it very helpful but recent got an interesting 3rd Model SA and hoped you could help.

It is a S&W .38 Single Action 3rd Mod or Model of 1891 w/ a 3 1/4" brl & Nickel finish. According to my Std Catalog of S&W , it is an "O series" or "Club Gun" and the frame is marked with single 0 for a serial number. The barrel latch is #19223 and the cylinder is #416445! It is not marked Model of 1891 on the brl. The finish seems to be consistent and it the parts appear to have been together for a long time.

Anyway, the book says some club guns were made to use up "extra" parts and given away as promotional items, while others were given to employees or friends of the company.

I'd like to request a factory letter but Mr. Jinks isn't accepting them now. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts.

Respectfully,

LBF15E

 

[Club Gun Fan]

As you can see from my name, I collect CLUB GUNS and Zero number guns. There were some 750 CLUB GUNS made. Yours really isn't a CLUB GUN. It is from a group of Zero numbered guns. It is believed that about 50 were made. They were given out by the Wesson's as gifts. As of today, there have been no records found on Zero numbered guns. I have five ZERO guns. Two are Single Shots. Two are New Departures, on has 5 zero's for its number, and one is a mate to yours. I am lucky enough to know were my 1891 went, because the owners name is engraved on it.All Roy could do is look up the parts numbers that you have. As a matter of fact, I am helping Roy write history letters. We are currently doing letters from August. If you ever want to sell your or trade let me know.

 

[lbf15e]

Very helpful! So it sounds like getting a letter really won't help too much. The gun came from a local estate sale and had no documented history.

Thank you!

LBF15E

 

[ol777gunnerz]

Model of 91

Thanks everyone for the interesting info, does anyone know how many of the single shots were shipped with matching number 8 inch barrels of the total, as well as how many 6 inch? My take on the reason for more single shots available: most revolvers were sold as every day use guns, which with more moving parts, eventually leads to broken guns. The single shot target pistols would not have seen everyday use, been purchased for specialty shooting, as such would have been cared for better by the owner. Just my take on the question of fewer revolvers available.

 

[glowe]

. . . The barrel latch is #19223 and the cylinder is #416445! It is not marked Model of 1891 on the brl. The finish seems to be consistent and it the parts appear to have been together for a long time . . .

Interesting set of numbers. The 38 Double Action barrel/cylinder assemblies were the same as the Third Model 38 DAs, so any parts from that era gun would have fit on the frame. If the latch was from a Single Shot, it would have been made around 1902 and the cylinder is almost certainly a 38 DA cylinder that was made around 1901. My guess is that the gun may have been put together early in the Twentieth century from parts grabbed from inventory.

The 38 DA never had "Model of '91" stampings, so it may be the same serial number as the cylinder.?? The serial number is between the "ears" of the top frame, behind the latch as stamped and maybe on both sides, so let us know what that number is??

I agree with Don that there may be no records of your gun and since many guns were presented as "0" serial number, it may be impossible to find information on your revolver.

 

[glowe]

. . . does anyone know how many of the single shots were shipped with matching number 8 inch barrels of the total, as well as how many 6 inch? . . . Just my take on the question of fewer revolvers available.

We have information on how many SS barrels were made at S&W. Records show that a total of 3200 1st Model barrels were manufactured, but only 1251 were used at the factory to produce Single Shots or combination sets. There were 862 - 22LR, 229 - 32 S&W, and 160 - 38 S&W barrels used. The rest were sold off and until recently, they were still available from Propperts for sale. There were alsoc 4617 - 2nd Model SSs and 9023 - 3rd Model SS pistols made, but only a few of the early 2nd Models used the Model of ’91 barrels.

As for barrel lengths sold, records are much more difficult to search. The SWCA Database shows the following percentage of 22LR Single Shot 1st Models made at the factory. 12% - 6", 18% - 8", and 70% - 10". Using those percentages against the 862 guns made, we get the following; 102 - 6", 162 - 8", and 610 - 10". Of course this is only an estimate.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

The single shot target pistols would not have seen everyday use, been purchased for specialty shooting, as such would have been cared for better by the owner. Just my take on the question of fewer revolvers available.

I disagree about your statement about the Single Shots. Back in the day they were used constantly. The people that bought them used them in serious competition. I have studied the Springfield Revolver Club which was an extremely active club. It's members held world records in pistol and revolver shooting. A number of members shot in the Olympics and won gold medals. You can find a number of Single Shots that were modified by the owner. I have a Single Shot that letters as being owned by the Smith & Wesson Revolver Club. It was left inside the Springfield Revolver Club for anyone to use.

 

[red9]

Here is another interesting one. 6" target #26608, barrel and cylinder match, unnumbered latch and stocks, no model of 1891 markings on barrel. Somewhere out there (previously sold by RIA) are a matching .32 and non-matching .22 single shot barrels, both 10" nickel with the same inscription.


Bob

 

[lbf15e]

Gary,

Thank you for the additional info on my SA 38...I'm hunting Pheasanrs in KS this week. I'll look closely at the barrel when I get home Sunday!

LBF15E

 

[glowe]

Here is another interesting one. 6" target #26608, barrel and cylinder match, unnumbered latch and stocks, no model of 1891 markings on barrel . . .

I have a 5" Target 38 SA around 25XXX that does have the Model of '91 on the barrel, which would have been the norm in that era around 1907. As you probably know, the 38 DA barrel/cylinder assembly was exactly the same as the 38 SA barrel/cylinder assembly. Plus there were lots of leftover Model of '91 barrels that were sold off by the factory, so they did not run out of them before production ceased.

Any 38 SA without the standard barrel stamping is suspect, but there are reasons why it could have happened. A factory employee could have grabbed the wrong barrel; the gun could have gone back to the factory for a barrel replacement without it getting stamped with the star and date; or the barrel was fitted outside the factory by a gunsmith who stamped the matching serial numbers on the top frame. Anybody's guess and even a factory letter will not solve the conundrum.

No matter how it came to be, that is a nice 38 SA Target and they are a rare gun, seldom encountered.

 

[red9]

Gary,

I forgot to mention, if you are keeping track, that mine shipped 3/10. Thanks for the comments.

Bob

 

[Aussie Collector]

numbers made vs numbers observed.

Regarding the numbers made vs numbers observed.
My contribution and observations on other models.

Looking at another model I have found the number reported as made appear to be under reported by 4 times, im 100% sure, another post for another time. perhaps this is a case of the opposite for the 38SA.

On another model I see the numbers reported as correct however they are really really scarce in the US. My research indicates more than half left the US, possibly 75% went off shore.

On other models S&W jumped serial numbers to make the numbers made look higher. This is a known practice for other manufactures of the time, possible however unlikely.

 

[glowe]

Jamie - these are great topics for Expert Commentaries on the Forum. My original post here was a Commentary I wrote a couple of years ago. The nice thing about them is they are easy to find and a permanent document that years from now, members can find and gain a wealth of information on many topics associated with SWCA.

I just added a second Commentary and found that any SWCA member or paying member can post their own first commentary with just a small amount of help from the staff. Once you post your first Commentary, you can do more directly from your computer without the need for staff involvement.

There are so many topics discussed on this Forum and so many experts with valuable information that I thought I would promote Commentaries. Besides, if I can do it myself, it cannot be that hard.

 

[lbf15e]

"0" series follow-up

Gary & Don,

Back from my trip and looked closely at my "0" serial number gun listed above with mixed numbers . I don't see any serial number on the barrel at all and it is blank "between the ears". The only other mark I can find on the gun is each side of the grip frame has a single "K" marked on it.

Thank you for your help!

LBF15E

 

[model3sw]

1891, 1st in .38S&W 6" Barrel, exceptional condition

Not too much off specific topic but here goes ...

1891, 1st model in .38 S&W, 6" barrel. Exceptional condition.
Serial Number 14164 is listed in Neal & Jinks as one of the few .38 S&Ws. and it's a 6", even better.

Enjoy, Sal Raimondi, Sr.

Photos by Mark Calzaretta (Colt_SAA on forum).

PS: The day I purchased this one, about 2 years ago, Mark Calzaretta and I started out in the morning in West Palm Beach, drove to Sebastian where my buddy Al tipped me off there was a 1st model American and a Schofield. I brought about $10K with me in cash and my checkbook. The American was already listed online and garnering bids, The Schofield was not yet listed. I had permission from the owner to disassemble (to inspect) both guns. I bought the Schofield on the spot, and a few days later had to blow away other Gunbroker bidders on the 6" First Model American ... one of the nicest early 1st model American I have ever seen and "the" only factory 6", SN:1707 (When i lettered it, the records affirmed 6" barrel with a factory lanyard to MW Robinson in 1871).

From up north we went across state and South to Punta Gorda. By that time I didn't have enough cash remaining to make the purchase. When the owner showed me the 1891, 38 S&W 6", I gave him all my cash drove to the nearest bank to get more money. Now Saturday evening, the banks were closed. I racked 2 debit cards and Mark pulled another $1500 from his cards (we could only draw $500 per card from the ATM)

In short, several hours and 400 miles round trip and came home with empty pockets. Yes, a lot of miles, a full day adventure, but bagged 3 nice old S&Ws as a result

 

[glowe]

Looks like it could have just rolled out of the factory! A plus is that there were only 100 documented 38 S&W Single Shots in all barrel lengths as having been manufactured. 6" would have been the most rare 38 barrel out there.

I forgot that I had posted that thread, since it was researched and posted in the Expert Commentary Section. Too bad we do not have access to that section anymore. Wonder when or if it will come back. It is hard to find these buried in thousands of threads, plus most were never posted anywhere other than the Commentary Section.