Why Isn't Underwood Xtreme Defender more popular?

[marathonrunner]

Guys I am just carious why the Underwood Xtreme Defender is not as popular as HST or Gold Dot. If you look a the data sheet, it performed much better than any HST

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b2...nloads/1cm0bjp2p_175650.pdf?ver=1574282100870

 

[Univibe]

All these trick bullets are snake oil. ER doctor and medical examiner can't tell what kind of bullet made the hole. Shoot real bullets.

 

[marathonrunner]

All these trick bullets are snake oil. ER doctor and medical examiner can't tell what kind of bullet made the hole. Shoot real bullets.

if you read the link it had many ballistic experts prove otherwise, the RIP bullet was a gimmick however

 

[Struckat]

No proven track record of use to effect.

I like light and fast, but I think there is a tipping point where too light is not good.
Theses X bullets are fast, but not rifle fast. And what happens when they hit bone?

They may be good in a lever action shootin varmints?

 

[BAM-BAM]

IMHO once you get past the FMJ vs hollowpoint....... you're splitting hairs..... at a large $$$$$ cost per round.

Gold Dot is fine by me.......a fast 9mm double tap.....totally eliminates the possibility of a "one shot stop"

 

[vigil617]

I respect whatever self-defense ammunition someone chooses to carry, recognizing that it is a highly personal decision involving the use of lethal force, which should never be undertaken lightly.

That said, I think the reasons the Underwood Xtreme Defender rounds are not more popular are, simply, cost and unfamiliarity with them. There are good SD choices out there for less money, to be sure.

Personally, I have chosen to use this round myself in 380ACP and 9mm because I am convinced by the ballistics testing that it is the most lethal round I can buy in those calibers. I want to maximize the lethality of these lighter calibers because if I have to defend myself, I want my best chance of success.

Yes, they are more expensive, and I train mostly with ball ammo and only very occasionally run the Underwood, just to insure function and to be familiar with the round otherwise. To me, spending $1.50 or so per round is not an issue, considering what is at stake.

I do not believe these rounds are "snake oil" or gimmicks, obviously. If others dismiss them as such, so be it. People make their own choices, based on their own criteria, and I have no issue with that.

 

[Erocksmash]

I as of Wednesday Dec 18th have dropped the extream defender, I had to dispatch a bobcat on the property here and I had 65gr extream defender in the G19, just what was in the gun as my carry ammo.... 2rds to the shoulder area threw n' threw the last to the CNS which finaly did the job... all went right threw, kinda made me nervous after that... if I ever got into a defensive situation I dont want over penetration, switched to controlled fracturing and 147gr T series...

No more snake oil for this guy...

Granted a Bobcat is different than a human and bullets hurt no matter what, if I can eliminate one extra step to think about like over penitration in a defensive situation, well I'm going to try my best...

Just my opinion..

 

[vigil617]

<smh> I knew I should have watched that ballistics video long enough to see the comparison simulating bobcat penetration.

 

[Erocksmash]

<smh> I knew I should have watched that ballistics video long enough to see the comparison simulating bobcat penetration.

Haha.... I like what Clint Smith says, "I'm not concerned what a bullet does to a block of jelly"...

Bullets hurt no matter what.

I My self would like to personally like to do some more testing to further my opinion on the round.

Just my thoughts respectfully sir.

 

[Dave Lively]

High cost, little data on how effective they are in real world self defense cases, concerns the light weight and sharp bullet edges might reduce reliability and a long history of over hyped wonder ammunition that did not live up to its claimed performance.

If it was just a matter of buying one twenty round box a year cost would not be a big deal. But I would want to fire a couple hundred rounds without any failures before I trusted it. I think it will work fine in most quality handguns but the light for caliber bullet weight and unique profile might cause reliability issues. That Underwood typically loads their ammo hotter than larger companies might also affect reliability.

I am not nearly as cynical as "bullets are bullets" Univibe but understand where he is coming from. In the 35 years I have been a gun enthusiast I have seen a lot of wonder ammo that did not live up to its hype in real world shootings. In the early 80s Silvertip ammo was being promoted as the bullet that expanded so well that caliber no longer mattered. Gun writers like Mas Ayoob advocated it frequently. Then in 1986 four LE agents died in a shootout when the quick expanding Silvertips did not penetrate deeply enough into the criminal with a rifle that was shooting at them. Ooops. The Glaser safety slug also got a lot of publicity in gun magazines around the same time. By the late 80s and early 90s the main stream media started picking up on ammo with names like Black Talon and I read ridiculous claims like it would stop and kill someone even if you missed so badly you hit them in the leg. After a few decades of wonder ammo that more hype than anything else it is pretty tempting to just say meh and move on when the latest new thing shows up.

Hollow points offer a real advantage over FMJ once you get to 9mm levels of power or more. And not all HPs are equal. It is usually not a big difference but some perform better than others. I have settled on GoldDots because they test well and far more importantly have a proven record in police use. They are made by a large manufacturer that has total control over the combination of bullet, powder and primer because they make them. And they do not sacrifice even the slightest bit of reliability by loading as hot as possible to gain the title of most powerful ammo available in YouTube tests.

If the price comes down and the XD ammo proves itself to offer a statistically significant advantage in actual use I will switch to it. Depending on how big of an advantage, if there is an advantage, I might even pay a premium for it. But for the foreseeable future I am going to stick with regular hollow point ammo.

 

[Telecaster]

Advantage: they don’t rely on velocity to do their damage, and the indeed do damage.

Disadvantages: expensive, and the two boxes I tried had several with primers that took multiple hammer blows to set off.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I prefer to carry loads with a proven track record in actual shootings, so my preferences are currently Gold Dots or HST. I also prefer medium to heavy bullets, as they seem to get the best balance between expansion and penetration.

Until the more exotic ammo gets some real-world results, I'll stick with proven loads.

 

[The_Truth]

These solids penetrate too much and don't cause a permanent wound cavity in real living things like they do in gel. No doubt they do more damage than FMJ but they are almost too light for woods carry/penetrate too much for city carry.

I keep a couple mags of Extreme Penetrators loaded up in 10mm, but they are really just backups to my hardcast woods carry. Wouldn't want to use em in a crowd. Would rather spend less money on a better bullet.

 

[CH4]

Exotic bullets have been proven to make cool keychains, but not much else. Stick with a good bullet with a track record. I like Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Hydro Shok and Hornady.

 

[BE Mike]

You have the best answers: expensive and they haven't been studied in actual defensive use. I carry them because I want penetration. They are of at least as good manufacture quality as the top manufacturers' ammo. I think they are best in calibers where penetration with other types of ammo has proven to be insufficient, i.e. .380.

 

[marathonrunner]

I as of Wednesday Dec 18th have dropped the extream defender, I had to dispatch a bobcat on the property here and I had 65gr extream defender in the G19, just what was in the gun as my carry ammo.... 2rds to the shoulder area threw n' threw the last to the CNS which finaly did the job... all went right threw, kinda made me nervous after that... if I ever got into a defensive situation I dont want over penetration, switched to controlled fracturing and 147gr T series...

No more snake oil for this guy...

Granted a Bobcat is different than a human and bullets hurt no matter what, if I can eliminate one extra step to think about like over penitration in a defensive situation, well I'm going to try my best...

Just my opinion..

Not sure you can compare a bobcat to a human but your point is valid in that a bobcat would be more of a true test than Ballistic gel. I think the FBI has it, if the bullet can penetrate 12 to 18 inches in gel, it will do its just going through connective tissue and bone.

You now have me convinced maybe I need to go back to HST 147gr but for winter carry I would rather go with the Underwood extreme defender only because it will not clog up like a Hollow point.

 

[ContinentalOp]

You now have me convinced maybe I need to go back to HST 147gr but for winter carry I would rather go with the Underwood extreme defender only because it will not clog up like a Hollow point.

FWIW, St. Paul, MN, police have been satisfied with the 147gr HST, and it gets really cold there with people wearing heavy clothes. It's my 9mm carry round of choice year-round.

 

[stansdds]

Guys I am just carious why the Underwood Xtreme Defender is not as popular as HST or Gold Dot. If you look a the data sheet, it performed much better than any HST

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b2...nloads/1cm0bjp2p_175650.pdf?ver=1574282100870

How many gun shops stock Underwood ammo? Doubt you will ever find it at Walmart (before they stopped selling ammo), Cabela's, Bass Pro, or any other sporting goods chains. Limited availability and lack of use by law enforcement typically means it will remain boutique ammo.

 

[Erich]

I have never taken it seriously because it's an off-brand company that decided to market with a misspelling, presumably to impress people who are impressed by such "edgy" business. Based on that choice by the ownership, I made the assumption that their engineering department was to be taken equally seriously.

I mean, as long as there's ammo out there by proven companies that works as advertised (and there's a lot of it), why go chasing something from an unknown company that's marketed in a dubious way?

Edited: I just downloaded that pdf and I'm laughing my rear off. "Sanitized version UNCLASSIFIED" - where's the section about the selling the Brooklyn Bridge to the "several Federal, State and Local government agencies as well as security teams, contractors and ballistics experts" who were involved? Guys, I've seen real-deal stuff along these lines, and this isn't it. Thanks for the laugh. (Did you see the typos in there? You think they might have had an editor clean up the report while they were "sanitizing" it. What a hoot!)

 

[Univibe]

I've said this before, and gotten flamed for it, but here goes:

Pistol bullets "stop" people two ways. (1) disruption of the brain or spinal cord, and (2) depressurizing the circulatory system. (There are three others, namely lung collapse, infection, and lead poisoning, but they're not relevant to self defense).

That's it. If a bullet, no matter the size, no matter the weight, no matter the shape, hits a big vessel, the bad guy is shut down quickly (but not instantly). If not, then not.

Energy, "stopping power," all that is beside the point. It either depressurizes the bad guy, or it doesn't.

The problem with the mouseguns is not expansion, it's penetration. A .22LR or a .25 ACP can bounce off a skull, rib, or sternum and just not go deep enough to get to the vitals.

The midrange service calibers: .38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45 ACP have enough penetration to get to the vitals with substantial reliability.

The big magnums do, too, but they cost you recoil, gun size, capacity, and ammo cost, for no real gain. A .40 hole in a heart does the same effect, whether made by a .40 bullet going 950 fps, or the same bullet in a 10mm going 1300 fps.



Look at bullets that have actually killed people. Handgun bullets, even "premium law enforcement" bullets, even one shot out of magnum revolvers, frequently fail to expand. They look smeared and chewed up, but you seldom see the lead mushrooms and flowers in the bullet ads.


Exit wounds are almost always difficult to distinguish from entry wounds, on first glance. They typically are a bit larger and more raggedy than the circular entrance wound, but you usually have to look close to see the difference. "Gaping Exit Wounds" in all but 5.56mm hits on extremities is mostly a myth.

SA Dove's shot on Michael Platt in the Miami FBI Shootout was a penetration failure, not an expansion failure. The 115 grain Silvertip went through Platt's upper arm musculature, entered the chest between the ribs, and ended up, expanded, about an inch from the heart. Had Dove been shooting FMJ, the fight might well have been over in 10 seconds, not four minutes.

Penetration and shot placement. That's 100% of the battle. That's why I carry 124 grain NATO for self defense. It will get there, be the bad guy a 140 pound meth head, or a 320 pound bar bouncer raging on steroids. That's why I downsized my carry caliber from .45 ACP to 9mm. More bullets, less recoil, faster shooting.