Underwood 68gr defender out performs every hollow point

[pasound]

A few years back, Cabelas was selling lead fluted SD ARX ammo for 380, 45ACP, and a few others. I bought a lot of it, all of the 380 was for my work friends who owned and carried 380's. The 45ACP for myself. I still have about 150 of the 45's. Then I discovered the Lehigh copper 120gr 357's for 38 and 357. I bought several hundred, and worked up loads. I won't mention powders and amounts, and as I don't own a chrono, no speeds.

The 38 - probably +P - would turn two water jugs inside out and "sometimes" stop in the third, but usually the fourth. Never any expansion or distortion. Major disruption. This was from my GP100, and a few from my model 60 to see if it was viable. Groups were 1 1/2" from the GP100, 2" - 2 1/2" from the 60 at 10 yards. It's viable, and I trust the reloads I made as good SD rounds.

 

[Eddietruett]

I know a guy personally that helped develop the Lehigh bullets. I’m pretty sure Underwood is loaded with Lehigh projectiles and if not, it’s the same concept. They work. I’ve seen a lot of the testing and data. Best thing about them to me is they are not defeated by clothing like can happen to hollow points. The larger calibers also work extremely well on animals like hogs that require major penetration

 

[Michaelp57]

Lehigh

I know a guy personally that helped develop the Lehigh bullets. I’m pretty sure Underwood is loaded with Lehigh projectiles and if not, it’s the same concept. They work. I’ve seen a lot of the testing and data. Best thing about them to me is they are not defeated by clothing like can happen to hollow points. The larger calibers also work extremely well on animals like hogs that require major penetration

Yes the Underwood does use Lehigh bullets. The fact that they do not rely on expansion is what sold me on them. I'd really like to see what kind of performance these get out of a longer barrel. Have any of you guys chronographed these out of a pcc?

 

[Michaelp57]

Lehigh

I know a guy personally that helped develop the Lehigh bullets. I’m pretty sure Underwood is loaded with Lehigh projectiles and if not, it’s the same concept. They work. I’ve seen a lot of the testing and data. Best thing about them to me is they are not defeated by clothing like can happen to hollow points. The larger calibers also work extremely well on animals like hogs that require major penetration

Yes the Underwood does use Lehigh bullets. The fact that they do not rely on expansion is what sold me on them. I'd really like to see what kind of performance these get out of a longer barrel. Have any of you guys chronographed these out of a pcc?

 

[Autonomous]

Best thing about them is they scare the Luddites...

 

[sourdough44]

Truth be known, most of us don’t shoot bad guys very often. That being the case, we are left with various testing methods.

 

[gym cat]

Shot Placement is everything!!

 

[rosewood]

Truth be known, most of us don’t shoot bad guys very often. That being the case, we are left with various testing methods.

Yep, and this is a good thing.

 

[Kanewpadle]

By my observations, fast ultra light bullets in most pistol calibers have performed miserably.

They don’t even come close to minimum expansion and penetration standards.

 

[edl]

The point is that the people who wrote the so-called study are lying and have no credibility.

To be fair, I have never personally seen the original version that mentions which agencies were involved, but I don't really see the relevance to that anyway. The point of sharing that test was not to imply that this bullet design is the best thing ever, but to point out that the design has some merit to it, and no apparent cons. Why does the inclusion of boutique ammo nullify the results though? They had boutique ammo going up against tried and true hollow points, so I see that as a GOOD comparison. I don't understand the logic behind your complaints. I carry the extreme defender in my shield .45 and have never felt as though I made a poor decision.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I’m not really a bullet snob, but I do feel the 380 can use any help it can get, to preform.

380s will do significantly better in 9mm cases.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Truth be known, most of us don’t shoot bad guys very often. That being the case, we are left with various testing methods.

I'm old school. In the Police Locker Room we would have our coffee and a cigarette and critique recent shootings. We were allowed to carry 9mm and .45 ACP off duty in the "Days of Revolvers". We were issued .38 Special ammunition but we had to supply are own 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition.

So that is how the Speer .45 ACP 200 grain HP got such a great reputation. Tom, Dick and Harry all had one shot stops so that was good stuff.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow rocked the firearms world with the release of Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Both books predicted the effectiveness and that were on the right track 40 +/- years ago.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Shot Placement is everything!!

Plus the willingness to be hits on a human being. Without Professional Training the "Fight or Flight" Response takes over.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I'm old school. In the Police Locker Room we would have our coffee and a cigarette and critique recent shootings. We were allowed to carry 9mm and .45 ACP off duty in the "Days of Revolvers". We were issued .38 Special ammunition but we had to supply are own 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition.

So that is how the Speer .45 ACP 200 grain HP got such a great reputation. Tom, Dick and Harry all had one shot stops so that was good stuff.

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow rocked the firearms world with the release of Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Both books predicted the effectiveness and that were on the right track 40 +/- years ago.

Marshall/Sanow findings right on track?

Depends on who you ask.

I didn’t drink the koolaid..

 

[edl]

Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow rocked the firearms world with the release of Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Both books predicted the effectiveness and that were on the right track 40 +/- years ago.

The Marshall Sanow one-shot stop percentages are nonsense because they deliberately exclude situations when one shot was not enough to stop someone and additional shots had to be fired.

Successes are meaningless unless you factor in failures. And Marshall & Sanow's numbers do not factor in situations when one shot was not enough, therefore they have no meaning.

Further, many agencies who Marshall and Sanow claim to have gotten their shootings from have come forward and said that not only did they not provide any information to Marshall & Sanow, and that the shootings that Marshall and Sanow have attributed to them do not match any of the shootings that they have on record.

The July 1992 Law and Order Magazine has several letters to the editor, as well as a statement by the magazines’ editor, further illustrating the lack of truth and serious errors in the Marshall and Sanow's “data”. Several papers have been published in the peer reviewed IWBA Wound Ballistics Review which have discussed the lack of credibility of Marshall and Sanow. The review wrote that "It was clear in our review and in from the investigations by others that Marshall & Sanow had lied, fabricated data, and did not follow scientific protocols. Their information is fraudulent and meaningless. Please do not stake your life on this garbage.”


Their work has been refuted by the International Wound Ballistics Association.

Go to Update your browser to use Google Drive, Docs, Sheets, Sites, Slides, and Forms - Google Drive Help

and download download the 1997 issue, volume 3 number 1 and read pages 26-35 which contain the articles:
Fackler, Martin L., MD.: "Book Review: Street Stoppers: The Latest Handgun Stopping Power Street Results." Wound Ballistics Review, 3(1); 26-31: 1997.
MacPherson, Duncan: "Sanow Strikes (Out) Again." Wound Ballistics Review, 3(1): 32-35; 1997.

and download 1999 volume 4 no 2 which contains the following articles:
Van Maanen, Maarten: "Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow 'Data Base': An Evaluation Over Time." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 9-13: Fall, 1999.
Fackler, Martin L., MD.: "Undeniable Evidence." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 14-15: Fall, 1999.
MacPherson, Duncan: "The Marshall & Sanow 'Data' - Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 16-21: Fall, 1999.

 

[geeollie]

I believe Lehigh is now owned by Wilson. Is this the same Wilson who makes 45's in Arkansas? He loves the Lehigh believes all the info that others are saying about them.

 

[Piwo]

It has been said many times on this forum that handguns stink when it comes to stopping power, whatever that is. I have always felt that way. Either they stop the fight or they don't...and you wont really know until such time as you need to.
This was driven home to me years ago. It was one of the last shootings I investigated while working basic patrol. A man attempted to break into a home in the middle of the day via the front door. He was putting the boots to the old solid oak door when the homeowner yelled at him to go away. Our burglar ignored him. The homeowner was on the other side of the door with a Marlin 30-30 loaded with Federal 170 grain bullets. As the door lock gave way the owner fired from the hip at the bad guy. The bullet hit the door frame, traveled through 6 inches of wood, expanded nicely (judging by the big hole in the frame) struck the burglar in the chest completely penetrating his chest and exiting his back. The burglar did not fall. He was not blown back like in the movies. He spun and ran like a deer. He covered a good 8 blocks (as I remember) and slowed to a walk. People sitting on their front porch saw him bleeding and sat him down on their steps and called an ambulance. They did not know the circumstances of him being shot. The ambulance arrived and took him to the hospital. He made a complete recovery. Investigation revealed that the burglar never lost consciousness. If he was armed and of a mind he could have put more than a few rounds into the homeowner. He kept trying to kick the door in because he didn't think the homeowner was armed. He didn't know what kind of gun he was shot with, he just knew he was shot. At the hospital, the ER doctor said that it was a miracle that the bullet struck nothing vital. It hit the mid/upper right chest and exited the upper back, punching a large hole in his scapula. The Doctor said he was lucky as an inch or two in another point of impact it would have been a different story.

In my simple mind, any advantage gained by bullet design, power, velocity or caliber is negated by poor shot placement. I'm sure a 30-30 round looks real good in gelatin tests and then some. I'm sure it exceeds any portable handgun made. But it can still fail. And as I have witnessed, effectiveness is directly related to bullet placement.

Bottom line for me is I want ammo that is dependable, accurate and penetrates. Depending on caliber, that may be accomplished with a hollow point, or maybe a SWC. These new "trick" bullets don't even rate my attention. I try to carry what others have carried and worked as well as can be expected from a handgun. If one round doesn't stop the fight, keep shooting, keep hitting until it does. Carry a gun that allows you to keep shooting and hitting, within your abilities. Then practice, practice, practice.

 

[Leonard]

I carry NOVX engage extreme, fluted poly copper 65 gr bullet, two piece case, head area I believe is stainless steel to deal with pressure rated at 1,750 FPS. I carry it in my ultra lite Bul armory the loaded gun is noticeably lighter with the NOVX. They also make a plus p version of this round, but i did not more penetration.

 

[Tomac]

It takes energy to cause a JHP to expand, energy that could have been used for penetration or tissue disruption. The fact that this Lehigh design can cause more tissue disruption than FMJ w/o expanding seems to make it more energy-efficient design. I find this interesting.

 

[murphydog]

It has been said many times on this forum that handguns stink when it comes to stopping power, whatever that is. I have always felt that way. Either they stop the fight or they don't...and you wont really know until such time as you need to.
This was driven home to me years ago. It was one of the last shootings I investigated while working basic patrol. A man attempted to break into a home in the middle of the day via the front door. He was putting the boots to the old solid oak door when the homeowner yelled at him to go away. Our burglar ignored him. The homeowner was on the other side of the door with a Marlin 30-30 loaded with Federal 170 grain bullets. As the door lock gave way the owner fired from the hip at the bad guy. The bullet hit the door frame, traveled through 6 inches of wood, expanded nicely (judging by the big hole in the frame) struck the burglar in the chest completely penetrating his chest and exiting his back. The burglar did not fall. He was not blown back like in the movies. He spun and ran like a deer. He covered a good 8 blocks (as I remember) and slowed to a walk. People sitting on their front porch saw him bleeding and sat him down on their steps and called an ambulance. They did not know the circumstances of him being shot. The ambulance arrived and took him to the hospital. He made a complete recovery. Investigation revealed that the burglar never lost consciousness. If he was armed and of a mind he could have put more than a few rounds into the homeowner. He kept trying to kick the door in because he didn't think the homeowner was armed. He didn't know what kind of gun he was shot with, he just knew he was shot. At the hospital, the ER doctor said that it was a miracle that the bullet struck nothing vital. It hit the mid/upper right chest and exited the upper back, punching a large hole in his scapula. The Doctor said he was lucky as an inch or two in another point of impact it would have been a different story.

In my simple mind, any advantage gained by bullet design, power, velocity or caliber is negated by poor shot placement. I'm sure a 30-30 round looks real good in gelatin tests and then some. I'm sure it exceeds any portable handgun made. But it can still fail. And as I have witnessed, effectiveness is directly related to bullet placement.

Bottom line for me is I want ammo that is dependable, accurate and penetrates. Depending on caliber, that may be accomplished with a hollow point, or maybe a SWC. These new "trick" bullets don't even rate my attention. I try to carry what others have carried and worked as well as can be expected from a handgun. If one round doesn't stop the fight, keep shooting, keep hitting until it does. Carry a gun that allows you to keep shooting and hitting, within your abilities. Then practice, practice, practice.

Interesting story. My guess is if that .30-30 bullet didn't shed energy passing through 6" of wood, and more of it transmitted into the wounded guy, that the outcome might have been quite different.