SGT ROCK 11B
Member
380s will do significantly better in 9mm cases.
Underwood 68gr defender out performs every hollow point
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380s will do significantly better in 9mm cases.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
I'm old school. In the Police Locker Room we would have our coffee and a cigarette and critique recent shootings. We were allowed to carry 9mm and .45 ACP off duty in the "Days of Revolvers". We were issued .38 Special ammunition but we had to supply are own 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition.
So that is how the Speer .45 ACP 200 grain HP got such a great reputation. Tom, Dick and Harry all had one shot stops so that was good stuff.
Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow rocked the firearms world with the release of Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Both books predicted the effectiveness and that were on the right track 40 +/- years ago.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Plus the willingness to be hits on a human being. Without Professional Training the "Fight or Flight" Response takes over.
Marshall/Sanow findings right on track?
Depends on who you ask.
I didn't drink the koolaid..
The Marshall Sanow one-shot stop percentages are nonsense because they deliberately exclude situations when one shot was not enough to stop someone and additional shots had to be fired.
Successes are meaningless unless you factor in failures. And Marshall & Sanow's numbers do not factor in situations when one shot was not enough, therefore they have no meaning.
Further, many agencies who Marshall and Sanow claim to have gotten their shootings from have come forward and said that not only did they not provide any information to Marshall & Sanow, and that the shootings that Marshall and Sanow have attributed to them do not match any of the shootings that they have on record.
The July 1992 Law and Order Magazine has several letters to the editor, as well as a statement by the magazines' editor, further illustrating the lack of truth and serious errors in the Marshall and Sanow's "data". Several papers have been published in the peer reviewed IWBA Wound Ballistics Review which have discussed the lack of credibility of Marshall and Sanow. The review wrote that "It was clear in our review and in from the investigations by others that Marshall & Sanow had lied, fabricated data, and did not follow scientific protocols. Their information is fraudulent and meaningless. Please do not stake your life on this garbage."
Their work has been refuted by the International Wound Ballistics Association.
Go to Update your browser to use Google Drive, Docs, Sheets, Sites, Slides, and Forms - Google Drive Help
and download download the 1997 issue, volume 3 number 1 and read pages 26-35 which contain the articles:
Fackler, Martin L., MD.: "Book Review: Street Stoppers: The Latest Handgun Stopping Power Street Results." Wound Ballistics Review, 3(1); 26-31: 1997.
MacPherson, Duncan: "Sanow Strikes (Out) Again." Wound Ballistics Review, 3(1): 32-35; 1997.
and download 1999 volume 4 no 2 which contains the following articles:
Van Maanen, Maarten: "Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow 'Data Base': An Evaluation Over Time." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 9-13: Fall, 1999.
Fackler, Martin L., MD.: "Undeniable Evidence." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 14-15: Fall, 1999.
MacPherson, Duncan: "The Marshall & Sanow 'Data' - Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story." Wound Ballistics Review, 4(2); 16-21: Fall, 1999.
geeollie
Member
I believe Lehigh is now owned by Wilson. Is this the same Wilson who makes 45's in Arkansas? He loves the Lehigh believes all the info that others are saying about them.
Piwo
Member
It has been said many times on this forum that handguns stink when it comes to stopping power, whatever that is. I have always felt that way. Either they stop the fight or they don't...and you wont really know until such time as you need to.
This was driven home to me years ago. It was one of the last shootings I investigated while working basic patrol. A man attempted to break into a home in the middle of the day via the front door. He was putting the boots to the old solid oak door when the homeowner yelled at him to go away. Our burglar ignored him. The homeowner was on the other side of the door with a Marlin 30-30 loaded with Federal 170 grain bullets. As the door lock gave way the owner fired from the hip at the bad guy. The bullet hit the door frame, traveled through 6 inches of wood, expanded nicely (judging by the big hole in the frame) struck the burglar in the chest completely penetrating his chest and exiting his back. The burglar did not fall. He was not blown back like in the movies. He spun and ran like a deer. He covered a good 8 blocks (as I remember) and slowed to a walk. People sitting on their front porch saw him bleeding and sat him down on their steps and called an ambulance. They did not know the circumstances of him being shot. The ambulance arrived and took him to the hospital. He made a complete recovery. Investigation revealed that the burglar never lost consciousness. If he was armed and of a mind he could have put more than a few rounds into the homeowner. He kept trying to kick the door in because he didn't think the homeowner was armed. He didn't know what kind of gun he was shot with, he just knew he was shot. At the hospital, the ER doctor said that it was a miracle that the bullet struck nothing vital. It hit the mid/upper right chest and exited the upper back, punching a large hole in his scapula. The Doctor said he was lucky as an inch or two in another point of impact it would have been a different story.
In my simple mind, any advantage gained by bullet design, power, velocity or caliber is negated by poor shot placement. I'm sure a 30-30 round looks real good in gelatin tests and then some. I'm sure it exceeds any portable handgun made. But it can still fail. And as I have witnessed, effectiveness is directly related to bullet placement.
Bottom line for me is I want ammo that is dependable, accurate and penetrates. Depending on caliber, that may be accomplished with a hollow point, or maybe a SWC. These new "trick" bullets don't even rate my attention. I try to carry what others have carried and worked as well as can be expected from a handgun. If one round doesn't stop the fight, keep shooting, keep hitting until it does. Carry a gun that allows you to keep shooting and hitting, within your abilities. Then practice, practice, practice.
This was driven home to me years ago. It was one of the last shootings I investigated while working basic patrol. A man attempted to break into a home in the middle of the day via the front door. He was putting the boots to the old solid oak door when the homeowner yelled at him to go away. Our burglar ignored him. The homeowner was on the other side of the door with a Marlin 30-30 loaded with Federal 170 grain bullets. As the door lock gave way the owner fired from the hip at the bad guy. The bullet hit the door frame, traveled through 6 inches of wood, expanded nicely (judging by the big hole in the frame) struck the burglar in the chest completely penetrating his chest and exiting his back. The burglar did not fall. He was not blown back like in the movies. He spun and ran like a deer. He covered a good 8 blocks (as I remember) and slowed to a walk. People sitting on their front porch saw him bleeding and sat him down on their steps and called an ambulance. They did not know the circumstances of him being shot. The ambulance arrived and took him to the hospital. He made a complete recovery. Investigation revealed that the burglar never lost consciousness. If he was armed and of a mind he could have put more than a few rounds into the homeowner. He kept trying to kick the door in because he didn't think the homeowner was armed. He didn't know what kind of gun he was shot with, he just knew he was shot. At the hospital, the ER doctor said that it was a miracle that the bullet struck nothing vital. It hit the mid/upper right chest and exited the upper back, punching a large hole in his scapula. The Doctor said he was lucky as an inch or two in another point of impact it would have been a different story.
In my simple mind, any advantage gained by bullet design, power, velocity or caliber is negated by poor shot placement. I'm sure a 30-30 round looks real good in gelatin tests and then some. I'm sure it exceeds any portable handgun made. But it can still fail. And as I have witnessed, effectiveness is directly related to bullet placement.
Bottom line for me is I want ammo that is dependable, accurate and penetrates. Depending on caliber, that may be accomplished with a hollow point, or maybe a SWC. These new "trick" bullets don't even rate my attention. I try to carry what others have carried and worked as well as can be expected from a handgun. If one round doesn't stop the fight, keep shooting, keep hitting until it does. Carry a gun that allows you to keep shooting and hitting, within your abilities. Then practice, practice, practice.
I carry NOVX engage extreme, fluted poly copper 65 gr bullet, two piece case, head area I believe is stainless steel to deal with pressure rated at 1,750 FPS. I carry it in my ultra lite Bul armory the loaded gun is noticeably lighter with the NOVX. They also make a plus p version of this round, but i did not more penetration.
It takes energy to cause a JHP to expand, energy that could have been used for penetration or tissue disruption. The fact that this Lehigh design can cause more tissue disruption than FMJ w/o expanding seems to make it more energy-efficient design. I find this interesting.
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Interesting story. My guess is if that .30-30 bullet didn't shed energy passing through 6" of wood, and more of it transmitted into the wounded guy, that the outcome might have been quite different.
Are we talking about that 2016/2017 "testing" done by these folks?
Link to Viper Weapons LLC site where the testing document is available:
Ballistics Testing
Uh huh.
Even an average government agency would've known that "Forward" ought to have been spelled Foreword.
"Amount of shots" and "Amount of hits" instead of number of shots/hits? That's scientific?
Those were some of the more charitable questions raised when that company's advertising of their "testing" document was first making the rounds on some internet gun forums.
Link to Viper Weapons LLC site where the testing document is available:
Ballistics Testing
Uh huh.
Even an average government agency would've known that "Forward" ought to have been spelled Foreword.
"Amount of shots" and "Amount of hits" instead of number of shots/hits? That's scientific?
Those were some of the more charitable questions raised when that company's advertising of their "testing" document was first making the rounds on some internet gun forums.
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681ismyfavorite
Member
I'm generally not lining up to be a beta tester.
I'll wait for the windshield and other intermediate barrier results compared to conventional stuff issued to police today...
I'll wait for the windshield and other intermediate barrier results compared to conventional stuff issued to police today...
I don't put much stock in handgun bullet wound tracks in ballistic gel. It makes for interesting viewing and speculation but that's it. Human tissue has an elastic limit which requires quite a bit more velocity than is typically produced from handguns. Think 2200+ fps.
Very interesting video on this subject:
https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y?si=72vOu84SFK8z3bvI
That said, I do carry Underwood's 55 gr +P Xtreme Defender in my Seecamp .32 because I don't want expansion. They are also reliable and accurate at 975 fps.
Very interesting video on this subject:
https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y?si=72vOu84SFK8z3bvI
That said, I do carry Underwood's 55 gr +P Xtreme Defender in my Seecamp .32 because I don't want expansion. They are also reliable and accurate at 975 fps.
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Gel results are interesting and allow apples to apples comparisons between various offerings. However, there's a sentence about the results that nearly everyone ignores: Test results are not predictive of real world performance.
The test medium, if properly prepared, is uniform. Real world bodies are not.
The test medium, if properly prepared, is uniform. Real world bodies are not.
Lucnic
Member
I have always been and will continue to be a location, location, location guy. As long as you use good ammo and hit the right spots you will do okay. Your mindset is also important. You have to have the mental fitness to understand that if you have your gun out it is for a good reason and there is a likelihood that you may get shot also. Stay in the game until the bad guy is incapacitated or running the other direction.
Having said all that, I found this group very interesting:
G9 Defense | #1 Premium Defense Ammunition
Having said all that, I found this group very interesting:
G9 Defense | #1 Premium Defense Ammunition
I carried a Colt Mustang daily for about 20 years.
At the time Hydrashocks were my choice.
hkcavalier
US Veteran
They are interesting. I tend toward heavier loadings for non-magnums and go light with the magnums, at least for 2 legged defensive purposes. But my wife's Shield is loaded up with 100gr Pow'r Ball ammo --- not because it's fast, which it is, but because it has a FMJ profile. Her immediate action skills aren't all that great. It needs to go bang every time until the slide locks back.
IMO, in order of importance with a handgun, it's:
Mindset (will you pull the trigger first or when needed)
Skill (can you score hits under stress)
Reliability of the weapon (with the chosen ammo)
Accuracy of the weapon (both mechanical and ergonomic)
Bullet construction
Some discount accuracy, but there have been a number of high profile defensive encounters at longer ranges in the last decade. Most modern handguns have very high mechanical accuracy, but some fall short in ergonomic accuracy (like snub revolvers or pocket autos).
Bullet construction came under a lot of scrutiny, especially in the 1980s (the Miami FBI shootout and others), and is still important, just subordinate to the other key elements, IMO.
I like the above story about the .30-30. There are so many like it in history. American Rifleman has several every month. Unless a CNS hit is made, the other shooter tends to keep shooting. There was a video of a police shooting in Spanaway, WA recently that's pretty instructive. Police kept lighting up the perp, who was hit, but he kept shooting. As he lost blood, his shots became slower and he slowly degraded, but it took time. Fortunately, the police had significant standoff and weren't hit, but they also couldn't put the guy down. The Hollywood "blow the guy off his feet" simply doesn't happen and doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. Most people who are shot tend to fall forward, if at all.
IMO, in order of importance with a handgun, it's:
Mindset (will you pull the trigger first or when needed)
Skill (can you score hits under stress)
Reliability of the weapon (with the chosen ammo)
Accuracy of the weapon (both mechanical and ergonomic)
Bullet construction
Some discount accuracy, but there have been a number of high profile defensive encounters at longer ranges in the last decade. Most modern handguns have very high mechanical accuracy, but some fall short in ergonomic accuracy (like snub revolvers or pocket autos).
Bullet construction came under a lot of scrutiny, especially in the 1980s (the Miami FBI shootout and others), and is still important, just subordinate to the other key elements, IMO.
I like the above story about the .30-30. There are so many like it in history. American Rifleman has several every month. Unless a CNS hit is made, the other shooter tends to keep shooting. There was a video of a police shooting in Spanaway, WA recently that's pretty instructive. Police kept lighting up the perp, who was hit, but he kept shooting. As he lost blood, his shots became slower and he slowly degraded, but it took time. Fortunately, the police had significant standoff and weren't hit, but they also couldn't put the guy down. The Hollywood "blow the guy off his feet" simply doesn't happen and doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. Most people who are shot tend to fall forward, if at all.
Ballistic self defense weapons work by penetration. Ideally, a self defense bullet will fully penetrate an assailant, then fall on the ground behind them.
Size matters. A larger hole is better than a smaller hole. Expansion is not a viable path to a larger hole. The classic mushroom is a ROUND NOSE.
I recommend the largest caliber one can handle. Flat point ammo, with largest meplat possible. I carry FPFMJ in .380 and 9mm.
To wit, DON'T BUY defensive ammo. It's way over priced, like up to 3X what it should be, and likely not as effective as flat point target loads.
Best defensive bullet? Hard cast wadcutter, with hard cast SWC close second.
Size matters. A larger hole is better than a smaller hole. Expansion is not a viable path to a larger hole. The classic mushroom is a ROUND NOSE.
I recommend the largest caliber one can handle. Flat point ammo, with largest meplat possible. I carry FPFMJ in .380 and 9mm.
To wit, DON'T BUY defensive ammo. It's way over priced, like up to 3X what it should be, and likely not as effective as flat point target loads.
Best defensive bullet? Hard cast wadcutter, with hard cast SWC close second.
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