Why Won’t People Carry?

WR Moore,

Point well taken on the challenges of teaching people when they can shoot, as well as the necessary corollary of teaching them when they cannot shoot.

When I taught shooting to AJ students, before we ever got out to the range we had had nine hours (3 sessions) in the classroom. The most extensive, and complex, part of this was the legal block because I not only had to teach applicable statutory and case law, but then apply all this law to real world situations.

One of the ways I prefaced this legal block was to tell my students that I was going to be the bearer of bad news. No one was going to come away happy. I also made it clear that if anyone actually wanted to use deadly force, they were in the wrong place.

Of necessity, I also discussed the nature of courage and fear, maturity, mental stability, and their relationship to the use of deadly force.

I had a large quantity of videos that exemplified the points I was making, including shoot/no shoot scenarios.

Everything I could do to prepare my students for an eventuality they should pray would never come, I did. Anything less would have been a disservice.

A couple of years ago I returned to where I had lived and worked to attend the retirement party for an old friend, who had been one of my rookies. When he retired he was the longest serving active duty peace officer in the state. At this function were a number of long term career peace officers who had been my AJ kids. I did not recognize them, but they remembered me. They came up to me, introduced themselves, then told me how well they remembered those deadly force sections of my AJ classes. One young lady, young relative to me anyway, told me that prior to learning to shoot in my class, she had never even held a firearm. But following my AJ classes, after she had turned 21, she applied to my old department, was accepted, and sent off to the basic academy. Her newly developed marksmanship skills earned her the top gun award in her academy class. She was now a veteran detective in my old department. She still used the nickname first given to her in the academy; Dead Eye Di.

After hearing all that I gave her big hug. I told her that for a teacher, it does not get any better.
 
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Most of the airheads in society, and even a few airheads who do carry concealed have about enough grasp of reality to envision criminal assaults going down the way they always to on TV. Ambushes are more realistic and people consider you paranoid if they know you're keeping a watch out for one. For what its worth, I've known some cops who were insane cyclists who took to peddling on rural two lane black tops and didn't carry either. Fortunately never heard of any of them experiencing anything worse than flat tires.
 
And than there are those who carry who shouldn't.
Was working an engineering project in an inner city hospital couple decades back, ended up walking through the mens housekeeping locker room during a shift change, startled to see so many semi's being either pulled from lockers and tucked into waist or being pulled from waist and being stuck in the lockers. Not a holster or revolver to be seen.
Mentioned what I saw to the engineering director who was my customer, and his reponse was "and not one of them has likely ever shot those handguns at a range or at all. Around here, when they start shooting, the safest person to be is whoever their shooting at."
 
LCC said:
And than there are those who carry who shouldn't.
Was working an engineering project in an inner city hospital couple decades back, ended up walking through the mens housekeeping locker room during a shift change, startled to see so many semi's being either pulled from lockers and tucked into waist or being pulled from waist and being stuck in the lockers. Not a holster or revolver to be seen.
Mentioned what I saw to the engineering director who was my customer, and his reponse was "and not one of them has likely ever shot those handguns at a range or at all. Around here, when they start shooting, the safest person to be is whoever their shooting at."
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The late Lloyd Rhodes of Deming, NM, was a prime example. He carried a 44 mag or a 1911 in his KMart security gig. One night after some whiskey, he decided his wife was unfaithful, so he made her dance with his 1911. She split when he had to pee and called the PD, all of whom knew him. He shot at Jerry Turner, then when it turned into a critical incident, he kept trying to get someone to shoot him. Well, even though there were full service police agencies on-scene, no one did him a solid. When he passed out, he got sacked up and would have died in prison, but he was costing Corrections too much money in healthcare, so they 'released' him to the VA in Big Springs, TX, where he died.

It could have been MUCH worse.
 
I am a "snowbird" live in a cold northern state and head south to avoid the majority of the cold. I made it a point to get "licensed" in 2 different states so that I am covered anywhere I travel.
Even while wearing "cargo" shorts in the warm south I find it easy to keep things covered up but available.
 
* We * here and similar places are largely of certain mindsets and thought processes . This thread has a lot of projecting upon the general population .

A large portion of the population doesn't feel the need . A large portion of CCW holders ( or gun owners in Con Carry jurisdictions ) don't feel the need to carry all the time . Not advocating this , just reporting the facts .

There is an old saying / joke - not joke about how to reduce your chances of being murdered by 90 % :

Don't buy or sell illegal drugs
Don't hang out in sleazy bars
Don't cheat at cards
Don't mess around with somebody else's woman

Of the remaining percentage , be aware that being gas station attendant , or cashier at convience store or liquor store are assumed risk occupations .

For people who avoid all the above , and live in rural area , or reasonably safe town or neighborhood , probably never have personally encountered potentially deadly force situiation , or had family members , or persons of their locality and background have such encounters .

Are such persons * right * in dismissing the wisdom of being reasonably prepared ? Nah . But from their viewpoint it's logical to them .
 
^^^ You just described our situation. We live outside a small, but growing town. We're faithful to each other, don't do drugs or drink in public (or to excess, for that matter) and we don't believe in cheating anyone. We even try to be home by sunset. I still CCW but the odds are I'll never have to shoot anyone (thank God). Nonetheless I'm thankful for the 2nd Amendment. I sleep better at night because of it.
 
Biggfoot44 said:
* We * here and similar places are largely of certain mindsets and thought processes . This thread has a lot of projecting upon the general population .

A large portion of the population doesn't feel the need . A large portion of CCW holders ( or gun owners in Con Carry jurisdictions ) don't feel the need to carry all the time . Not advocating this , just reporting the facts .

There is an old saying / joke - not joke about how to reduce your chances of being murdered by 90 % :

Don't buy or sell illegal drugs
Don't hang out in sleazy bars
Don't cheat at cards
Don't mess around with somebody else's woman

Of the remaining percentage , be aware that being gas station attendant , or cashier at convience store or liquor store are assumed risk occupations .

For people who avoid all the above , and live in rural area , or reasonably safe town or neighborhood , probably never have personally encountered potentially deadly force situiation , or had family members , or persons of their locality and background have such encounters .

Are such persons * right * in dismissing the wisdom of being reasonably prepared ? Nah . But from their viewpoint it's logical to them .
Click to expand...

Agreed.

We are all shaped by our experiences.

I worked as a police officer while attending a University in a town where literally half the people were university students, most of whom left each summer. A number of officers worked 9 month contracts.

I normally filled the summer working as a park ranger for Game Fish and Parks, but the last two summers where I was away for 6 weeks each summer for the PLC program, I worked the rest of those summers as a night manager for one of my uncle's convenience stores (night manager = night and or evening shift person who also prepares and deposits the approximately $5k at the end of the shift). In addition to taking a $5K deposit to the bank's night deposit after each shift, I knew bad things happened to employees at night and in fact every one of his stores except the one I worked at was robbed and the employees beaten those summers. My uncle asked me once why the store I worked at wasn't robbed, as it wasn't in one of the bette neighborhoods, and it was poorly designed with few windows. I explained that when someone came in who was obviously casing the place, or in some cases just looked a little too sketchy, I just lifted my shirt up over the top of my 1911 and made sure they could see it.

He was appalled as he wasn't aware I was conceal carrying. My response was "I'm a CJUS major and work as a police officer the rest of the year, what did you expect". I then pointed out I was very selective about "customers" seeing that I carried and asked him if he'd ever gotten a complaint from any customer. He dropped it and while never approved concealed or open carry, he also didn't ban it. Worker comp claims and resulting higher premiums as well as hiring and training new staff are expensive, even when insurance covers the theft itself.

Currently, I see customers buying guns because they do see a growing need for guns given the growing levels of civil unrest and divisiveness in this country. A significant percentage of them are liberals who now see the value of a concealed carry handgun, and or an AR-15 for home defense. The current administration is picking around the edges and trying to use ATF over reach and executive orders to ban what it can, but the future of gun control on a national level is pretty bleak for the anti-gun crowd as more Americans see self defense as a personal responsibility

——-

Your "assumed risk" comment was ironic. I remember back when law enforcement was one of those assumed risk occupations. Firefighters still run into burning building to rescue people. But police officers now are far more inclined to have attitudes of "us against the civilians" and "whatever it takes to get home tonight" - attitudes that are much more militaristic and much more at odds with the idea that an officer should accept some risk to ensure innocent bystanders are shot by mistake.
 
I've seen several posts referring to "safe areas". I'm not real sure how one defines that. The last time I was the target of street level income redistribution, I was by a Federal Courthouse in the downtown of a major city.

While rural areas may statistically be "safer", they aren't without issues. One of which is rather uneven response times for emergency services-possibly excepting farm accidents. While the time interval may be variable in length, the common factor is that it's plenty of time to bleed out from a serious injury.
 
CouchPotato said:
Some people prefer to stick their head in the sand and pretend the risk does not exist. Some can't even handle the subject and claim that simply discussing it gets them too scared and too upset. Some of those people often will go on a rant about how guns should be illegal... and then I'll point out that crime should be illegal which usually short circuits their brain a little.

In my opinion it's a mental disorder.

To them I always argue that the point of discussing it, and preparing for it, is so you don't actually have to worry about it and stress about it, because you'll be prepared and equipped to handle the situation if something does happen.
Click to expand...

This is true. I used to work with a woman from China. Obviously in that society, individual liberty is simply not a thing. Private firearm ownership is simply not a thing, other than for the elite.

She couldn't understand that many of us carried firearms. I asked her what she would do if someone attacked her and meant to do her harm or death. She had no answer other than to say that she would curl up and accept death if she had to.

She simply couldn't bring herself to say she would fight back.

I think it's very much a cultural thing.
 
I rarely carry a gun. It's just a risk/reward calculation that people make. I do much more risky things on a regular basis like drive my car, ride a bike without a helmet, ride a motorcycle, go snorkeling in open water, etc. I enjoy shooting and make it to the range on a regular basis, however I have no desire to carry a gun...

I live in a safe neighborhood and work in a safe office. The act of carrying a gun could get me in trouble/fired at work and most of my being out and about revolves around going to or home from work. Sure I've carried concealed at work just to see how it would go, but after a few days it just seemed pointless and not worth the risk/hassle. I could carry a gun while out riding my bike but I'm probably more likely to take a tumble while out mountain biking and get severely bruised from landing on the gun rather than ever needing it.
 
I have to say that I'm impressed by just how sensible most folks are being in this thread.

It's all too often that I see threads like this ultimately amount to little more than a; "I'm smarter than this dead guy" thread in which the coffins of gunshot victims are used as a soapbox to promote whatever gunfighting/concealed carry philosophy the contributors may subscribe to as well as to inflate their own egos while treating the victims like fools.
It doesn't even matter whether or not the victim was carrying either, all that affects is the nature of the argument, that they were carrying the wrong type of firearm, the wrong type of ammunition, or had inferior training, etc.

Such individuals often punctuate their own foolishness by paying no mind the circumstances, don't bother to look up local laws in the region in which the crime occurred to ascertain whether or not the victim could legally carry under the circumstances, or whether they could carry whatever each participant is pushing as the ideal, one-size-fits-all self-defense loadout, they just presume that the victim was a fool, label them as such in the most acceptable way possible, just to flaunt their own presumed superiority, self-assured that it could never happen to them because they're too intelligent, too well-trained, too vigilant, and too well equipped.

To those who express such denigrating opinions of the unfortunate victims of violent crimes, I can only say that such arrogance will not prevent you from being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, under the wrong circumstances, nor will it prevent your untimely demise from being critiqued by your fellow armchair commandos or ignoramuses who presume the worst of victims of violent crimes, and verbally urinate all over their graves.

That being said, those who may feel that way are free to lash out at me for pointing out their folly rather than acknowledging a personal flaw and attempting to work on it, I'd expect nothing more from those who so freely critique the actions of others, as such blatant arrogance seldom comes from those who are accustomed to reproval.
Besides, that's what freedom is about, making personal decisions, such as the decision not to carry because it's a right rather than an obligation, and most folks go through their entire lives without even needing a firearm to begin with. Not everyone who doesn't choose to carry a firearm is being lazy, negligent, or foolish, but if you wish to express such an opinion, then that's your prerogative, just as it is mine to point out the flaws in such beliefs.
 
Some of us just don't live our lives waiting for the big gunfight.

I may be wrong, but I choose not to live my life in that mindset. And I fully realize how vulnerable I am. I am betting that it won't happen to me. So far, so good. It's my choice.

I am prepared to be wrong.
 
smoothshooter said:
Just read about a middle-aged couple down in Florida that were riding their bikes home that were attacked, stabbed and slashed to death by an illegal with a knife.
Why won't law-abiding people carry pepper mace or guns to protect themselves?
At least one of the victims might still be alive if they had done so.
Click to expand...

Having been in EMS since 1979, and a career Paramedic since 1985, I'd say for the same reasons so many people do not take training such as...

CPR

First Aid

STOP THE BLEED

Fire Extinguishers

Many more lives would be saved every day, if people would train, and remain competent in these simple courses/training.

When seconds count, 911 is minutes away.
 
Patrick L said:
Some of us just don't live our lives waiting for the big gunfight.

I may be wrong, but I choose not to live my life in that mindset. And I fully realize how vulnerable I am. I am betting that it won't happen to me. So far, so good. It's my choice.

I am prepared to be wrong.
Click to expand...

Glad to see there are other sensible folks who aren't obsessed with and waiting for the "big gunfight".
 
There are two type of people. Those who run toward the threwt and those who run away.

Recently an item appeared on my face book thread. In short it involved a well known aerobatic pilot commenting on the tragic death of another aerobatic pilot who landed long and ran her Extra 300 off the end of a runway, where it turned over.

The other pilots there were prevented from going to her rescue by people in authority at the airport. The part time emergency responders finally got to the plane 43 minutes after the crash.

A similar occurrence happened with the death of
Charlie Hillard at Sun and Fun in 1996. He nosed over while taxiing the aircraft and died of positional asphyxiation due to his head being pressed down against his chest. There were about 10,000 people watching and a half dozen or so by standers lifting on the tail and allowing Hilllard to a) breathe and b) get out, would have saved his life. But that didn't happen as the authorities kept people away from the airplane until the designated emergency crews eventually arrived too late to save him.


It was the same thing in this recent accident, but worse as everyone knew there were no emergency responders on the field. Yet the bystanders didn't argue.


Last fall I was watching a student pilot make his first solo, and saw him disappear behind a hangar on final approach, saw what I thought was a wing tip visible over the hangar roof for a fraction of a second and then didn't see a plane re-appear.


At that point I ran outside and out onto the ramp to get an unobstructed view to confirm he'd crashed. I then got my trauma kit and went to the crash site. Thankfully it was a no injury accident and no emergency medical treatment was needed.

If their had been an authority figure of some type present looking out for my safety and refusing to let me or anyone else render assistance, my response while have been "you better have e handcuffs and know how to use them if you plan to stop me."

I get that our nanny state leaders want to ensure we all stay safe and I get concerns that bystanders can get in the way of emergency responders. But when seconds count those responders are at best minute away, and are often the better portion of an hour away.

I also get that some bystanders don't have much common sense and can do more harm than good. But a one size fits all "everybody wait until help gets here" approach just doesn't work in many accidents, especially those at small airports.

——-

There are very similar opposing viewpoints when it comes to armed citizens. And there is a similar need to use common sense.
 
Forte Smitten Wesson said:
I have to say that I'm impressed by just how sensible most folks are being in this thread.

It's all too often that I see threads like this ultimately amount to little more than a; "I'm smarter than this dead guy" thread in which the coffins of gunshot victims are used as a soapbox to promote whatever gunfighting/concealed carry philosophy the contributors may subscribe to as well as to inflate their own egos while treating the victims like fools.
It doesn't even matter whether or not the victim was carrying either, all that affects is the nature of the argument, that they were carrying the wrong type of firearm, the wrong type of ammunition, or had inferior training, etc.

Such individuals often punctuate their own foolishness by paying no mind the circumstances, don't bother to look up local laws in the region in which the crime occurred to ascertain whether or not the victim could legally carry under the circumstances, or whether they could carry whatever each participant is pushing as the ideal, one-size-fits-all self-defense loadout, they just presume that the victim was a fool, label them as such in the most acceptable way possible, just to flaunt their own presumed superiority, self-assured that it could never happen to them because they're too intelligent, too well-trained, too vigilant, and too well equipped.

To those who express such denigrating opinions of the unfortunate victims of violent crimes, I can only say that such arrogance will not prevent you from being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, under the wrong circumstances, nor will it prevent your untimely demise from being critiqued by your fellow armchair commandos or ignoramuses who presume the worst of victims of violent crimes, and verbally urinate all over their graves.

That being said, those who may feel that way are free to lash out at me for pointing out their folly rather than acknowledging a personal flaw and attempting to work on it, I'd expect nothing more from those who so freely critique the actions of others, as such blatant arrogance seldom comes from those who are accustomed to reproval.
Besides, that's what freedom is about, making personal decisions, such as the decision not to carry because it's a right rather than an obligation, and most folks go through their entire lives without even needing a firearm to begin with. Not everyone who doesn't choose to carry a firearm is being lazy, negligent, or foolish, but if you wish to express such an opinion, then that's your prerogative, just as it is mine to point out the flaws in such beliefs.
Click to expand...

Good points very relevant to the topic.
 
Lazy and Irresponsible??

Lowa said:
I'm in a constitutional carry state. The people I know that don't carry are really really lazy with going outside. They wear sweatpants and gym shorts with whatever t shirt is available. Some of them even have ccw permits. Carrying a gun is just extra work and they aren't willing to put in any effort at all.

I even carry a 442 mounted to a clip in my pants to the gym. I won't let people get hurt whether I have a gun or not, so I prefer to be prepared.

Everybody should carry a gun at all times. Just like everybody should wear a seatbelt, drive the speed limit, and signal properly. Instead, we get over 30k car deaths a year.

Lazy, irresponsible people.
Click to expand...

Being Lazy or irresponsible has nothing to do with it.
 
I won't denigrate people who choose not to carry, or don't even think about it. That's their choice in a free country. But I also won't come to their aid should the material hit the fan and it doesn't involve me or my family, because I am not going to introduce the potential liability to me for their poor decision. That may sound harsh to some folks, but I don't care. The protection of my family and I is the paramount thing, and that includes financially, so I won't introduce liability risk.

I'm the only one in my family (mine and my wife's families) that carries. They're unfortunately on their own should they be out and about without me. I wish my wife would share my mindset, but she doesn't want to. But she likes the fact that I'm carrying when we're together.

Eons ago when I started carrying, my wife understood (still does) that we never talk about that in public. So she came up with a term to use if she perceived a dangerous situation and she wanted to make sure I was carrying. She would ask "do you have your garlic bread?" :D Yeah, it's silly, but funny too. It brings some levity to the situation.
 
What my LTC instructor told me in class really hit home. I am not a peace officer, I have my LTC to protect myself and my family. It doesn't mean that if I saw someone that was in need I wouldn't step in, it just means I would have to cross that bridge when I came to it.
 
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I've had my CWL since 1999, and I've only shot one person, that
being a drunk who attacked me in a parking lot, but this guy fought in tough-man contests, and I would have been beaten within an inch of my life, or worse* I have had some close calls since then, but haven't had to shoot anyone else* I carry ALL the time when I'm out & about, rather have it, and not need it, etc*
I know the odds of having to use your pistol to defend your life are slim, but if it DOES occur, then the odds have changed to 100%! I'll continue to carry 7 days-365!
 
rwt1405 said:
Having been in EMS since 1979, and a career Paramedic since 1985, I'd say for the same reasons so many people do not take training such as...

CPR

First Aid

STOP THE BLEED

Fire Extinguishers

Many more lives would be saved every day, if people would train, and remain competent in these simple courses/training.

When seconds count, 911 is minutes away.
Click to expand...

+1. I also have a smoke detector in every room (as I've been to a few fatal house fires too). Bad things do happen to good people and some of us attempt to manage those risks as best as we can...
 
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