Will we ever see a Polymer cylinder revolver in 22

[43cApologist]

This is probably a stupid question but I am wondering if it would be possible to have a revolver that can fire even low powered 22 shorts, calibris or cb caps, with a polymer blend cylinder.

We are seeing more polymer used in modern firearms. From glock to modern m&p and many 3rd parties using 3d printing in more places then ever before. The materials science is improving (PLA, VS PLA+ for ex, and even some now blending carbon fibre or some metals) makes me wonder if this is currently possible or it it will ever be.

2 or 3 guns made me think this MIGHT be possible. The s&w 43c. 351c and ruger LCR 22 lr. Neither has a polymer cylinder, in fact the ruger uses stainless steel. But the LCR grip is polymer, where the 351c and 43c have an aluminum alloy frame. Hence in this case, Ruger showed its possible to use polymer where aluminum is otherwise used, neither have had issues with frame durability to my knowledge.

I know engineering doesn't really work like that, and it is sort of apples and oranges frames vs cylinders...

But s&w has shown to be very flexible open to different materials, as evidenced by Titanium or Scandium cylinders which reduced weight but have their own upkeep quirks that show they aren't just purely better then stainless steel in all ways, as well as aluminum alloy cylinders like the 43c and 351c have.


Could call it like the 43 PCR (polymer cylinder revolver) and undercut ruger a bit on LCR price, making it more in the range of the new 38 bodyguard ($350-$430 range) if it were possible. I know one of the primary complaints I see under any 43c video is that it is too expensive. Personally I think quality is cheaper in the long run, and would actually be more on the side of wanting a stainless steel, ti, or scandium cylinder on my 43c, before I'd go for the more inexpensive potentially lighter polymer option, but I am realistic in knowing a lot of the market buy based largely on price, and what is available locally.

I'd appreciate anyones thoughts or insights. I AM completely ignorant to the chamber pressures or strength demand from metals in a revolver and I figure this is a good place someone with more knowledge could tell me exactly why it won't work, or how it may be possible. Thanks, sorry for rambling!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Polymers melt when they get hot. That's why polymer handguns have steel barrels, among other parts. In the case you describe I don't think that chamber pressure is meaningful because the ultimate issue is heat. Shoot enough rounds through a polymer cylinder and something somewhere will melt. ICBW BIDTS

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have heard of a plastic .32 revolver made by a non-US intelligence agency strictly for getting thru metal detectors. Allegedly is good for maybe 12-15 shots. Never seen one. Could be B.S. Since I have seen zip guns to fire .22 LR made from a wire wrapped reinforced automobile radio antenna I suspect it is possible. Probably not for high round counts.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Probably need steel chamber inserts and steel inserts for the chamber cuts. Sounds like a rather expensive zip gun.

 

[hkcavalier]

They've been made, but simply cannot hold up for very long.

The Kel-Tec P17 is about as plastic as a .22 can get, but still has steel where it counts.

 

[Oldsalt66]

I don't believe they'd retain their timing for log because polymer is soft.

 

[CH4]

Kinda of a transition revolver for Glock addicts?

 

[Yendor357]

Good lord, 22 revolvers have enough issues already! lol

 

[43cApologist]

Polymers melt when they get hot. That's why polymer handguns have steel barrels, among other parts. In the case you describe I don't think that chamber pressure is meaningful because the ultimate issue is heat. Shoot enough rounds through a polymer cylinder and something somewhere will melt. ICBW BIDTS

This was one of my initial concerns as well. The filament known as PEEK handle 260 degrees c or 500 degrees f before deforming.

I Know it may be possible to get that hot, but mine never has. On the day I shot my 43c most in 1 hour, I shot 320 shot, 40 mini mags, 40 cci stingers, and 250 aguila super max 22 lrs.

I'd guess (didnt bring temp gun) it only got to about 100f. It never burned my hand, and I rapid fired as fast as I could reload with speed loader (320 shots in under 1 hr, is over 5 shots a minute including reload time and some target adjusting. And thats with standard to hot 22lr. I imagine 22 short, cb caps or calibris would be even more suitable

I could be wrong maybe internally its hotter and aluminum alloy cylinder doesnt transfer heat to hand? But no part felt hot ever, just a bit warm.

If heat is an issue, could stainless steel sleeving, or some sort of insulation type material be used between the polymer and casing. I know this is in a sense, reinventing the wheel, for little reason, but I figure if there is money to be saved in manufacturing, and money to be potentially made in sales, s&w or some other co like taurus, charter arms, ruger, or rock island may give it a shot.

Or More likely i'm just being stupid and no one ever will. But small part of me hopes this makes it to a curious 2a fan with a 3d printer will maybe give it a try.

 

[steelslaver]

Might not heat the entire barrel that hot, but the surface temps inside the barrel as the bullet past through it would get over 500f. I think the rifling would so quick. No reason to believe it wouldn't fire at least a few times.

Now a ceramic liner in barrel, chambers, plus a ceramic ratchet, tip on hand and sears and it might last a good while longer

 

[43cApologist]

Might not heat the entire barrel that hot, but the surface temps inside the barrel as the bullet past through it would get over 500f. I think the rifling would so quick. No reason to believe it wouldn't fire at least a few times.

Now a ceramic liner in barrel, chambers, plus a ceramic ratchet, tip on hand and sears and it might last a good while longer

The topic is about a polymer cylinder, everything else remains alum alloy like 43c is currently, stainless steel ejector rod, barrel, cylinder release etc. Only change would be making the cylinder polymer, not going for a metal detector beater here tho some did mention rumor of a revolver like that in comments, and my first thought was also ceramic barrel if one was trying to go that route

 

[mikerjf]

thoughts:

22LR is higher pressure than 38 Special, 44 Special, 45ACP. Yes, you can make cyl walls thicker with the small diameter.

So far as metal detectors, your ammunition and probably firing pin are still metallic.

Rifling is a concern, since even frames erode near the cyl gap.

What’s the difference in weight between plastic and aluminum? Lighter guns are usually harder to shoot well.

Something like a derringer might be the markets first try, rather than a revolver.

Plastic and ceramic knives seem to be a thing.

 

[43cApologist]

thoughts:

22LR is higher pressure than 38 Special, 44 Special, 45ACP. Yes, you can make cyl walls thicker with the small diameter.

So far as metal detectors, your ammunition and probably firing pin are still metallic.

Rifling is a concern, since even frames erode near the cyl gap.

What’s the difference in weight between plastic and aluminum? Lighter guns are usually harder to shoot well.

Something like a derringer might be the markets first try, rather than a revolver.

Plastic and ceramic knives seem to be a thing.

I agree weight won't be much different if at all, that is not primary reason. Cost is the big change

Id bet someone could 3d print 1,000 cylinders for the price it cost s&w to make 10 or 20 aluminum cylinders (reaming, annodizing, fluting, polishing, etc).

This would only matter if it worked and didnt melt or blow up after like 50 to 100 shots.

If possible I think people would like the side benefit of being able to customize color, potentially print a 22 mag or 22 lr cylinder, change from 8 shot to 7 or 6 if someone wanted to, or for thicker case walls to handle heat or pressure.

This is more thought experiment then something I expect to actually be done by s&w or any major manufacturer. Although there is shameless companies like BCA who sell pot metal ak uppers that cant run 1 mag without breaking apart, so maybe someone is greedy/sleezy enough to not care hopefully not the case!

 

[steelslaver]

A poly cylinder would be an interesting experiment, with a metal ratchet as well as the rest of the gun it might work for some time.

Some research found this this
PAI – Polyacrylamide (PAI) boasts the highest tensile strength of any plastic at 21,000 psi. This high performance plastic has the highest strength of any unreinforced thermoplastic, good wear and radiation resistance, inherently low flammability and smoke emission, and high thermal stability.

That is only half the tensile strength of 6061-T6 aluminum generally used in firearms

Its density is 1.42/CC while aluminum's is 2g/CC. So the Polyacrylamide is 29% lighter

Get a round piece turn it to J frame cylinder OD, then ream the center for a yoke tube and ream a chamber in it. Stick a 22lr in it, Install it in a K22. Line the chamber up with a range rod and wedge it so it won't turn and pull the trigger. I have everything, but the plastic and that much interest

Scandium alloy frames with steel bits and titanium cylinders are already light enough to make recoil recovery difficult. Maybe in a 22, but at a certain point it becomes an exercise with diminishing returns

 

[Pisgah]

One thing I know for sure -- if a plastic cylinder is cheaper than steel, they'll figure out how to make one...

 

[swagmeister]

Kind of like the 617 with the alloy 10 shot cylinder of many years ago. Good idea but didn't last but a year or so. Too many problems with it. I'm old and like old school design in handguns-the more forged steel, the better!!

 

[steelslaver]

A carbon fiber cylinder would probably hold up to 22 lr at least.

While I love steel, and believe it is a great material for high strength applications I do not believe it will be the end all forever.

Advances in polymers, aluminum and better still carbon technology could well surpass it some time. Look at some of the Kevlar products which rival steel while being 5 times lighter.

Carbon nanotube and buckyball composites show lots of promise.

The first iron swords were inferior to those made of bronze

Time will tell

 

[reddog81]

You can get a Heritage Rough Rider for around $100. They aren't great guns, but I'd take one of those over a revolver with a plastic frame and cylinder for $50.

 

[Borderboss]

Let me turn the topic on its side a bit. What about a scandium cylinder and a polymer frame? Barrel would still be steel. This should yield a pretty light package, since I think that's the objective.

 

[steelslaver]

A scandium alloy cylinder would be about 2/3 the weight of a titanium one, but it is also more apt to corrode. The throat area would suffer

A scandium alloy cylinder with thin titanium liners might work to a certain point

But, guns are already approaching the point where recoil is to much of a factor. Maybe in 22s but not being very sensitive to recoil and having some experience with scandium alloy guns and titanium cylinders tells me we can't go much farther in the light/to power ratio department in guns. and still hang on to them

For each reaction there is and equal and opposite reaction. A gun of equal weight to the bullet it was firing would have an equal velocity. The closer you get to the 2 being equal the more difficult it is to keep the gun from being a projectile