Which website is most likely to sale WINCHESTER 231 first.
Are there any that have had WIN 231 lately?
Are there any that have had WIN 231 lately?
WIN 231
- Thread starter Claymore33
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nbedford
Member
I agreed on that up until today, but, and I posted this in another thread today because I think it is important enough to repeat.
Not exactly the same. I was thinking the same thing until today. This is more a note to myself, so that hopefully I will remember it - When you get to 38 Special or above, yup, they are pert near indistinguishable, but in smaller calibers like 32 S&W Long at least in the Hornaday 2003 manual, what would be a normal load for one might be a ways above max for the other. I reckon it is that you are dealing with so many tenths of a grain, and that makes a difference. Example with a 90 lead SWC - 1.9 grains of HP-38 is at max, but 2.5 grains of Win 231 is at max. In other words 2.5 grains of HP-38 would be way, way, way above a maximum load.
Always learning something new in reloading. And, always double check your manuals - assume nothing.
Well, when your reach out to Hodgdon with the question, they emphatically state that HP-38 and W231 are the exact same powders, that they come off of the same manufacturing line and packaged for Hodgdon and Winchester.
But... that is now. I would agree that when using reloading data from old manuals, one should err on the side of caution because of the slight variances in manufacturing that occurs between lots and throughout the years. Under regular circumstances these variances usually don't make much difference, but when you're near the top end of the max load window, all variances in components (be it powder, cartridge cases, primers, etc.) start to come into play in my opinion to make things "interesting".
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nbedford
Member
I have read that myself, and that may have been a mistake in the Hornady Manual. Like I said before that is exactly what I thought also. But in loading for 32 S&W Long, I will err on the side of caution.
Shoot I have both so I may just load a few rounds, say 10 with Win 231, and 10 with HP-38, both with say 1.9 grains, and see how they compare on my chronograph.
Twoboxer
Member
When you get to see W231 and HP38 together on the shelf again, you can note they often have the same batch number.
Fact: Years ago there could have been minor differences. Today they are the same powder. Identical.
FWIW, if I experienced (recently) what you have in a particular caliber, I would look to my other components or reloading technique.
Your manuals differ, the powders don't. There are many threads about various manuals having different loads. In fact the Lee book has differing loads (231/HP38) for the same bullet. You can read other posts for an explanation.
nbedford
Member
Not a thing wrong with my 32S&W L reloads at all. But I use Bullseye. Just noticed the difference in my Hornady manual. By the way, not much difference if at all in larger calibers. Excuse me for bringing it up; but there are some who reload for early 32 hand ejectors. Party on.
Remember, just like different guns of the same model can have different results, I wonder if the difference between the Hornady manual and other was due to the test gun/barrel that Hornady used in developing/testing the loads?
I've long noticed that bullets of the same style (JSP, JHP, etc.) and weight, will have different charges of the same powder between the Speer, Hornady and Lyman manuals.
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DeplorabusUnum
Member
I check sites regularly. Sometimes you have to buy what you can find that will do the job. As of right now powdervalley.com has Vihtavuori N320, Win WST, and Accurate #5 listed as in stock, which are all close in burn rate to W231.
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Twoboxer
Member
These publishers all used different chambers and barrels, had different ambient conditions, and different batch numbers of all of their components. Any or all of those things could have caused the differences we see.
In the case of HP38 and W231 . . . there was also a time when they were made by two different manufacturers using different chemical processes toward but often not exactly to the same end point.
This is why the published data are not "recipes", they are "test results". As they say, YMMV.
nbedford
Member
One other point and then I will hush. Due to circumstances pert near beyond our control many are forced to dig pretty deep for powder either in our own personal storage or at yards sales and such. No telling how old some of the Win 231 is or HP-38 for that matter. Be wary is all I am saying. I hope that does not generate more controversy. Party on.
Well the 2 powders have been identical since at least the mid 70s. The data printed back then was different mainly because of differences in testing procedures and equipment which still happens to this day. What year did Hodgdon start selling HP38? Winchester reformulated their powders way back yonder I still have cans of Winchester 230 and 295 and 540MS before they changed 'em...but that was at least in the 60s. I happened to have the Hodgdon #22 manual 1st printing and it was done in 74. I bought a few 25 lb boxes of HP-38 That when opened had a plastic bag inside with 25 lbs of what was tagged Winchester 231 in that time frame. Having a few problems with power but will do a bit of checking to see when Hodgdon started selling HP-38 HS-6 HS-7 H-414 which are all Winchester powders too. Yesterday it was 58 and sunny day before 78 and sunny...today 28 and snowing its but off with wind...blowing too so the powder keeps going out.
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cfplinker
Member
Hodgdon took over distribution of Winchester powders in JAN 2006. Starting with the Hodgdon 2007 book the data for 231 is identical with HP38 showing that the powders are the same from that time on.
Now prior to that date I believe that the powders very similar in that they came from the same bulk powder. We will probably never know what additional processing Winchester did to the bulk powders or how they blended the various lots to get the characteristics they wanted for the ammunition they loaded.
Hodgdon has never manufactured a smokeless powder. They get their powders for various manufacturers, such as the St. Marks plant owned by General Dynamics, and package it for the reloading market. While these two powders may have been siblings at one time today they are twins.
Now prior to that date I believe that the powders very similar in that they came from the same bulk powder. We will probably never know what additional processing Winchester did to the bulk powders or how they blended the various lots to get the characteristics they wanted for the ammunition they loaded.
Hodgdon has never manufactured a smokeless powder. They get their powders for various manufacturers, such as the St. Marks plant owned by General Dynamics, and package it for the reloading market. While these two powders may have been siblings at one time today they are twins.
DeplorabusUnum
Member
231 in stock at powdervalley.com as of right now. Won't be for long.
oddshooter
Member
I came into possession of 3 extra jugs of W231 several weeks ago. I sold them to local guys for $235 and I gave a bonus of 100 small pistol primers to each guy.
They all seemed real happy.
I was just happy to get some powder to those who needed it at a reasonable price. No hazmat fees, no shipping fees, and no taxes.
The look on their faces when I handed them the freebie bonus of SPP was priceless.
Prescut
They all seemed real happy.
I was just happy to get some powder to those who needed it at a reasonable price. No hazmat fees, no shipping fees, and no taxes.
The look on their faces when I handed them the freebie bonus of SPP was priceless.
Prescut
scattershot
Member
Hodgdon will tell you they are the same.
4barrel
Member
How much powder is in your jug? I bought 4 pounds of n350 today at a local store for $112 +tax that has been there for several weeks just for back up.
Sistema1927
US Veteran
Exact same stuff. If there are differences in loading data, it is attributable to different people using different set ups.
HP38 = W231
H110 = W296
HP38 = W231
H110 = W296
