Win 94 SN Question

[22hipower]

Have a chance to buy an 1894 octagon barrel rifle in 38-55. Early 1900s and in reasonably good shape for its age. Looks original to me with the exception that WRACO is stamped where the SN should be. As I understand it, and there may be other reasons, Winchester stamped WRACO over the SN if a gun went back to the factory and the SN was too worn or damaged to be read. Anyone know more about that? Also thoughts on impact to value would be appreciated. Most of the 38-55s I see are in the $1500-$2500 range and I can get this one for $1k but am a bit nervous about the WRACO stamp.

 

[DWalt]

That's a new one on me. You might contact the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, they have all the old Winchester factory records. First thought would be legality - does that constitute defacement or alteration of a serial number? If it was made pre-1899, it wouldn't make any difference, but how would one know?

"PLEASE NOTE: The Cody Firearms Museum staff is able to respond to general questions regarding firearms and firearm-related issues beyond the scope of the Records Office on a limited basis. E-mail Curatorial Assistant Daniel Brumley or call 307-578-4117. Response times vary with the workload of the curatorial staff. We are unable to respond to gunsmithing, highly technological, or hand-loading inquiries."

 

[2152hq]

There's has been more than a few Winchesters of that period of different models with that WRACO hand stamped marking obliterating the guns ser#.
Several theorys. One favorite of many is the Winchester Service Dept doing that when the guns ser# too worn to make out.
Doesnt make a lot of sense though IMO.


The only in print reference that I know of to WRACO hand stamped marking over the ser# is in a book titled ;Winchester Shotguns and Shotshells; by Ron Stadt (sp?),
He mentions some Model 1893 pump shotguns having their ser# obliterated and overstamped with 'WRA Co'
The practice was most likely done by some chain stores who were violating Fair Trade Price demands made by Winchester (under pricing the goods) and did not want the guns traced back to the chain. Winchester could file suit and cut off their contract if proven.
This makes more sense to me as to why the marking is as it is.

But it doesn't square up wether the gun is legal . As it is still a 'modern' (post 1899) firearm w/a obliterated mfg ser#.

If I was really, really interested in that 92,,I'd call , not email, the BATF Tech Branch and ask them about the rifle & ser# situation.
I kind of think I already know the answer.

I'd look around for a different rifle w/o any baggage.

 

[chud333]

Yeah, If it's post 1899 i would avoid it as well.
I don't like to see a gun i am interested in even
have a scratch thru the serial number, much less
have it obliterated.
Probably why its so cheap......

Chuck

 

[Fishinfool]

I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess the WRACO stamp over the serial number will not be an issue. Serial numbers were not required by law prior to 1968, but defacing a serial number, even if it is a gun manufactured prior to 1968 is generally illegal.

But, my thought is if the serial number was defaced prior to 1968, when it was not illegal to do so, and it was done by the factory in accordance with the law at the time, and documentation exists to show it was a common practice of the factory at the time, it should be legal.

But, yea, check with the BATF.....

Larry

 

[Big E3]

I have heard that guns stamped with WRACO will on occasion have the serial number stamped on the side of the tang beneath the stock. If you’re real interested in the gun have them remove the stock and check for a number there.

 

[chief38]

Beats me! That said, I LOVE my .38-55 = a very flat and accurate shooting round.

 

[2152hq]

Serial#'s on centerfire longguns have been required since at least 1938 (Federal Firearms Act 1938,,don't confuse with National Frearms act 1934)
FFA'38 also first made it a Federal Felony to remove, alter, ect the mfg applied ser#,,also felony to possess a firearm with an altered, obliterated, ect ser#.
(All the GCA68 did was add RF long guns and shotguns to the list of firearms required to be ser#d at mfg or import. With that, all catagorys of firearms were then required to be ser#'d.)

The WRACO marking in question is an obliteration of the manufacturers applied ser#. There seems to be theorys but no hard evidence how/why it was done but the best is probably the fair trade price agreements some retailers ment to get around and not be tracked back to.
There's no history of Winchester Service Dept ever defacing it's guns sent in for service with that marking.

The matching removeable lower tang will on most case have the correct ser# in place,,but there is no way to tell if the lower tang is the matching one to the original firearm.
Like a S&W w/the ser# ground from the butt and the ser# taken from the back of the cyl is assumed to be the guns correct number,,thats a big assumption.

Wether the ser# defacement and overstamped WRACO marking was done by a retailer, a supplier, refinisher, whatever, it is one thing above all,, a defaced manufacturers serial number.

If it was some historical footnote in Winchester factory refinishing practices, by now someone would have factual documentation of the practice and I suspect an ATF C&R enrollment for these defaced ser#d guns.
Something like the movement of the factory documented less than 16" bbl Trapper lever actions from the NFA list to the Type 1 firearm C&R list.


People did lots of things to firearms back in the 1800's and early 1900's. Not much was thought of ser#'s, bbl lengths, OAL ect.
Now we are under a tremendously complicated set of regs,
Those regs and specs have come about after many such 'alterations' were done to these older guns but they still apply just as well.

I still feel the same,,stear clear,,it's a plain jane 94 w/an altered/obliterated ser#.



There's just too many others out there.

 

[Fat Frank]

In George Madis' "The Winchester Book", he shows an example of such a gun, (in this case a standard 26" octagon bbl M-94 rifle). The text underneath the picture states:
Winchester re-marked some guns which had been returned to the factory with a "WRA CO." marking when no serial number was visible. Frequently the serial number had been removed before the gun was received by the factory, but in some cases the number was removed at the factory by polishing prior to re-bluing or refinishing. In some cases a new receiver was used with parts of a returned gun to make up another gun for the customer."

I'm sure the good people at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center/Winchester Museum will back this up. I've seen a couple of examples of these over the years. They're scarce, but not extremely rare. Should not be a show-stopper.

Personally, I would liked to have had one in my collection, but then I focused on any old Winchesters that had some unusual feature which brought them out of the ordinary.

Looking at The Winchester Book a little more, he also shows an example of a Model 1892 with a similar situation. I believe it was standard practice, under certain unusual circumstances and I doubt there were sinister motives in this case.

 

[2152hq]

More looking around on the ever correct webnet and I found this:

"...According to George Madis "For a short time, when a Winchester was returned for repair to the plant, if the serial number had been removed or was illegible, a marking "WRA CO." was stamped where the serial number should be.
This practice began just before the year 1900 and closed in 1903, when some mail order companies, especially Sears Roebuck, were removing the serial numbers from Winchesters in the hope that the guns would not be traced to the original purchasers.
Winchester had refused to sell to any company that would not maintain the recommended retail prices, so the "price pirates" as Winchester called them, purchased the guns from stores and other distributors rather than directly from Winchester.
Between 1903 and 1910, Winchester would mark the serial numbers on the inside of the lower tang in addition to the usual location.
This enabled Winchester to trace the gun to the suppliers of the "price pirates".

Again attributed to Madis and a slightly different or maybe better said an extended version of the above.
Kind of rolls all the versions so far into one with some time stamps on it.
I guess it sounds better ,,but I still remain a skeptic that Winchester would do such crude battering to one of their own.

Seems unlikely rifles/shotguns made in the late 1800's early 1900's would simply wear away their ser#s in a few years to the point of unreadability.
More likely to me still the purposeful removal to avoid tracking the seller down violating Fair Trade Price regs and a crude marking applied in it's place by the same person responsible for the ser# removal.

The question has come up on the Winchester Forum, the general consensus was aftermarket application for whatever reasoning.

I've found a few Win lever actions for sale w/the marking and the write ups all say pretty much the same thing,that the ser# removed by companys that Win would not sell directly to, These companys (Price Pirates) bought from other wholesalers, removed the #'s so the gun wouldn't be traced back.

IF, the gun ever went back to Win for repair/refinish, Win Service Dept would apply the WRACO marking over the damaged Ser# area.

Sounds OK, but with the small number of guns around with the marking and large number of guns bought and sold back then (Sears was one of these Price Pirates), why not either a large number of guns with the WRACO marking if (Sears, ect) applied the marking,,or just rifles with a gouged out ser# w/no WRACO marking as most guns never make it back to the factory for service in their life times.

Interesting I guess,,but still not enough to buy one w/a crudely lined out ser#.