Winchester Lever Actions

[jimmyj]

Several older Winchester Rifles were chambered in various .45 calibers:
1. .45/60
2. .45/70
3. 45/90

Could a rifle chambered in .45/90 use .45/60 or .45/70 ammo in a "Pinch" ?

 

[s&wchad]

The only Winchester lever gun that took .45-70 and .45-90 cartridges was the Model 1886. You can shoot .45-70 cartridges in a .45-90. The only caveat is that you shouldn't shoot modern smokeless ammunition in a gun that wasn't designed for smokeless powder. Winchester marked "Nickel Steel, especially for smokeless powder" on the barrels. I saw an early deluxe takedown 1886 that was destroyed by a modern factory cartridge. The barrel split and it took out the mag tube and forearm. It made me sick just looking at it.

The .45-60 was made for the 1876 Centennial rifle, which had a much weaker toggle action. I believe the rim is a different diameter and it may not even chamber in a .45-70. Some people cut down .45-70 cases to use in guns chambered in .45-60, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to shoot those in a .45-70. Accuracy would probably be terrible.

 

[rockquarry]

You can shoot .45-70 in a .45-90 chamber, but I'll bet accuracy would suffer, particularly if using a cast bullet seated to normal .45-70 overall length. Maybe if you seated the bullet out to as close to .45-90 length as possible, accuracy might be unaffected, but you may run into a crimping problem depending on the bullet.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

Sure you can shoot 45-70 out of a 45-90 gun.

You can shoot .45-70 in a .45-90 chamber, but I'll bet accuracy would suffer, particularly if using a cast bullet seated to normal .45-70 overall length. Maybe if you seated the bullet out to as close to .45-90 length as possible, accuracy might be unaffected, but you may run into a crimping problem depending on the bullet.

But with all that freebore your accuracy will likely be really poor.

 

[Oscar Zulu]

The ‘86 45-90 was intended around a 300 grain bullet. Does it have a different twist rate than the 45-70? If so, would the heavier bullet stabilize?

OZ

 

[BB57]

Let me add some detail and hopefully clear up some potential confusion.

The 1886 Winchester was developed for the .45-90 WCF with a case length of 2.400” compared to the .45-70 which had a case length of 2.105.”

There was also the .45 2 4/10 Sharps Straight which is more commonly referred to as the .45-90 Sharps.

The external dimensions are exactly the same, the difference is in the load. The .45-90 WCF was typically loaded with a 300 gr lead bullet with a COAL of 2.6” to reliably cycle through the 1886 action. The .45-2 4/10 or .45-2.4, or .45-90 Sharps (whatever you choose to call it) was loaded with a 500 or 550 gr bullet to a longer OAL that would not feed in an 1886.

Similarly, the .45-70 used in the 1886 was the .45-70 Govt, also known as the .45-70-405 for its use of a 405 gr. bullet. However that original round was largely supplanted in infantry service by the .45-70-500 developed in 1879 which had more range. The 1884 Springfield was developed for that round.

In cavalry carbine service the .45-70-405 was supplanted by the .45-55-405 carbine load, which used a cardboard tube in the case or a stack of card wads in the case (depending on who made it) to take up the extra space and allow a reduced 55 gr powder charge.

In short, the whole designation matters (caliber - black powder charge weight - bullet weight) and “.45-70” and “.45-90” isn’t sufficient.

——

The .45-90 is more flexible than the .45-70 in an 1886 as you can usually chamber a .45-70-405 or .45-70-500 in a .45-90 and if it both functions and chambers, it can usually be safely fired in the longer .45-90 chamber. Accuracy however may suffer as the soft lead bullet gets an additional .3” head start and enters the rifling at higher speed, and you can get excessive gas cutting in the longer free bore.

But there’s also a caveat in terms of pressure. The 1886 is a strong action but it was designed for 28,000 CUP /28,000 PSI loads and that’s the same whether it’s a .45-90 or a .45-70.

Post 1972 Marlin Model 1895 .45-70s can be loaded to 40,000 CUP / 45,000 psi.

Ruger No. 1 rifles can be loaded to 50,000 CUP / 60,000 psi.

Using either of the latter two loads in a vintage .45-70 or .45-90 will likely low it up.

—-

In any case if you own a .45-90 and you want to shoot it, you really need to be hand loading .45-90-300 ammo for it.

The difference in velocity between a .45-90 and .45-70 with black powder loads is about 200 fps and much of that is due to the lighter bullet. Paper patching was common in the .45-90 for accuracy and to reduce leading.

In other words, juice isn’t worth the squeeze in a .45-90 lever action. It has some advantages in a single shot for BPCR shooters but for the average person .45-70 will do whatever you need it to do, especially in smokeless powder loads where the .45-90 offers no significant advantage.

 

[rockquarry]

But with all that freebore your accuracy will likely be really poor.

Yes, but as mentioned, you may find a bullet that can be seated way out to make up for OAL difference between the two cartridges and get the bullet close to the lands. Still, a lot of trouble. The extra expense and effort that went into using the right cartridge and brass would be well worth it.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

WOW.......Thanks for this thread/info.......Makes me wish I could go back in time and purchase those. I have a stubby 45/70 octagon bbl Marlin. With 405 gr cast bullets....It kills on both ends.

 

[Drm50]

I had a Marlin 45/90. Didn’t have dies for it and friend of my dads loaded me up several different loads, all with cast bullets. He was into the old stuff a lot more than I ever been. Anyway bore was in such poor shape it wouldn’t shoot no matter what we did. I don’t remember bullet weight but was 500gr + or -. We had loaded with Black and Unique. In fact I still have a few of those loads left.Never had another 45/90 of any flavor.

 

[Grayfox]

We want pictures!

 

[jimmyj]

I had a Marlin 45/90. Didn’t have dies for it and friend of my dads loaded me up several different loads, all with cast bullets. He was into the old stuff a lot more than I ever been. Anyway bore was in such poor shape it wouldn’t shoot no matter what we did. I don’t remember bullet weight but was 500gr + or -. We had loaded with Black and Unique. In fact I still have a few of those loads left.Never had another 45/90 of any flavor.

Can the bore be relined?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The 1876 "Centennial" was available in 45-60 and 45-75 & several other rounds in that family. The parent case for them is the 50-70, so the rim is much bigger, and the case is much shorter! I have friends that shoot both cartridges in original guns for Cowboy rifle events. These guns seem to perform very well with lightly pitted bores loaded with less than maximum loads.

But there isn't any way to use 45-70 Gov't based cartridges in those actions. The Italian Companies were going to release Repo 76's about 10 years ago, but I've never seen one.

Ivan

 

[s&wchad]

We want pictures!

I can do that!

This Model 1886 shipped from the factory on May 28th, 1895. It letters as a .45-90 with a half-octagon barrel, 2/3 magazine, CC receiver and a checkered PG stock with a shotgun butt.

Here's a full shot of it with a couple standard 1886 rifles and a Model 1876 "Centennial".

 

[StrawHat]

…In cavalry carbine service the .45-70-405 was supplanted by the .45-55-405 carbine load, which used a cardboard tube in the case or a stack of card wads in the case (depending on who made it) to take up the extra space and allow a reduced 55 gr powder charge.

The Armory eventually did away with the cardboard filler and seated the bullet down on the powder. Now, the carbine cartridges were visually different from the rifle cartridges. This allowed them to also do away the the C or R on the headstamp.

Kevin

 

[2152hq]

Can the bore be relined?

There are liners available for the 45-70 cal and in a few different twists and even a couple different groove depth specs (differing by only .001).
The liners themselves are 5/8" dia.
So depending on the particular bbl that is being relined, the bbl breech, chamber dia's as well as the muzzle dia has to be measured before hand to make sure the bbl can handle the 5/8" bore necessary to accept the liner.
Plus that the 'assembly' of the liner and the orig bbl will be strong enough to be shootable. The liner in itself is generally not especially at the chamber end. So it needs support from the orig bbl for strength.

Liners, good quality, are not inexpensive.
$8 to $10 per inch is common. So for just the liner you can see the cost is up there already.
Add the labor & shipping,,refinishing if necessary, pulling the bbl, remounting and on and on to actually do the job and it can get painful.

 

[BigMuddy]

Most of the “poor accuracy” reports when shooting 45-70’s in a 45-90 are due to bullet weight. As mentioned, the 45-90 was created with a 300 grain bullet. They usually won’t be very accurate with the commonly loaded 400 grain 45-70.

As to 45-60, the rim is actually thinner than the 45-70. I have two Winchester 1876 rifles in 45-60, one original gun from 1880 and the other an Italian reproduction. They both work fine with cut down 45-70’s. I purchased some brass from Buffalo Arms for my rifles and they were 45-70 stamped brass that had been cut down and the rims were turned down to make them thinner. They were expensive and not necessary. Also found I needed to use 45-60 specific dies as that round has a slight taper to it.

The original ‘76 twist rate is slower for a 300 grain bullet. My Chiappa reproduction has a faster twist and shoots 400’s very well. Used a 410 hand cast 20:1 bullet with 50 grains of BP to take a bison several years ago with that gun.

Dan

 

[Muley Gil]

The 1876 "Centennial" was available in 45-60 and 45-75 & several other rounds in that family. The parent case for them is the 50-70, so the rim is much bigger, and the case is much shorter! I have friends that shoot both cartridges in original guns for Cowboy rifle events. These guns seem to perform very well with lightly pitted bores loaded with less than maximum loads.

But there isn't any way to use 45-70 Gov't based cartridges in those actions. The Italian Companies were going to release Repo 76's about 10 years ago, but I've never seen one.

Ivan

1876 Centennial Rifle | Uberti

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

There was an Uberti model 1876 LNIB in 45-60 for sale on a local online classified here earlier this year for around $1500. Looked like a model '73 on steroids.

John

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

I picked up a uberti 1876 NWMP full stocked carbine years ago in .45-60. It had toggle link issues as one side was correct but the other was too long causing the headspace to be off but a gunsmith friend and I worked on it and now its good to go.

 

[Drm50]

Teddy Roosevelt favored the Win 45/75 for bear. There is picture of him setting horse holding a 76, which noted it was 45/75.