Wonder nines - we don't hear that very often any longer

[ISCS Yoda]

From a totally different thread:

I know I'm nitpicking, but the 59 was the first of the wondernines

Is that correct? Is the Model 59 considered the first of the "Wonder Nines" or was it the Browning Hi-Power? I cannot remember any longer!

***GRJ***

 

[Tom K]

The Hi-Power was not double action, one of the defining characteristics of a wondernine (in addition to the high capacity double stack magazine). I am not aware of any mass-produced gun prior to the M59 that combined these two features.

*edit* Wikipedia lists the MAB PA-15 (1968) and H&K VP70 (1970) as preceding the M59 (1971).

 

[tops]

In about 1960 I was young and dumb and bought a P38. I liked the gun but it didn't take me long to start wondering why anybody would carry a nine when there were guns that shot real bullets. I always thought people that thought like me is where "wonder nine" came from. Larry

 

[Smoke]

double action, one of the defining characteristics of a wondernine

That's the first time I've ever heard that

 

[Maze 686]

Burchardt C-93 was the first from what I was taught. Then G. Luger made it better.

 

[NYlakesider]

I might be wrong but if I remember correctly it was Jeff Cooper that first called them that.

He used to call guns like that an ingenious solution to a nonexistent problem.

Mr. Cooper was not a fan of the 9MM

 

[Tom K]

I might be wrong but if I remember correctly it was Jeff Cooper that first called them that.

He used to call guns like that an ingenious solution to a nonexistent problem.

Mr. Cooper was not a fan of the 9MM

Cooper was not a fan of the 9mm, but I believe he was less of a fan of the Walther P-38/PPK style of DA/SA trigger mechanism. That is what he referred to as "an ingenious solution to a nonexistent problem". He felt that the "cocked and locked" style of carry of the 1911 (or the Hi-Power for that matter) was optimum.

He liked the CZ-75 as an operating mechanism due to the absence of the Walther style decocker and ability to carry cocked & locked, or DA with the hammer down (if so inclined, which he was not). He thought well enough of it to cooperate with Dornhaus & Dixon to use it as the basis for the failed Bren Ten, the first 10mm.

 

[rwsmith]

The doublestack mag

The double stack mag was one of the defining features of the 'wonder nines' which gave 15+ rounds to the revolvers 6. The rest of the world found the 9mm useful except here nobody wanted one of them 'metric' calibers. When people started actually thinking instead of giving their opinions, the nine was accepted.

I also think when they stopped examining all the data from required military FMJ round and actually thought to use JHP ammo the 9 started looking a lot better.


BTW In 1980 when you said 'gun' I pictured something like a model 10 and that's what I bought. 9mm was foreign to me. It took the 9 being adopted by most LE agencies to gain widespread acceptance. Nowadays when you say 'gun' people picture a 9 or at least a semi auto.

 

[Tom K]

That's the first time I've ever heard that

You sound young.

I'm old enough to remember when the term was first being used. Most of the early wondernines used the Walther P-38/PPK style decocker/safety lever mounted on the slide. Examples are the S&W Model 39/59 and the Taurus PT-92. Others such as the Steyr GB and later Beretta 92 used just a decocking lever. The H&K VP70 was a true DAO trigger with no single action capability and the Glock came along with its "safe-action" trigger, which everyone called double action only, but is in fact more like 1-1/2 action. The CZ75 had a frame mounted safety and no decocker. All used a so-called high capacity double stack magazine and some form of DA trigger.

 

[george minze]

I have always thought the S&W 39 and the 39-2 as the first mass produced double action 9mm pistols around, with the exception of the Walther P38.. I have no idea when the H&K model PSP (Police Service Pistol) and the American models of the same pistol came into being.....They were not double action but squeeze cocker pistols..Very nice pistols. Great shooters and very accurate...(Very Expensive)

 

[ChuckS1]

I have an early CZ-75 that I bought at the Fulda Rod & Gun Club back in 1985 when I was stationed in Germany. Still have it; great gun, though I did replace the OEM barrel with a Bar-Sto.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

IIRC "Wondernine" was applied to any large capacity-10+ magazine-9MM.
The Browning High Power was the first followed by the S&W M-59. Anyone remember the French MAB P-15-15 rounds! IMHO the 9MM's popularity and the argument for the large capacity waned somewhat when the 10MM and then 40 S&W were introduced. All the "Wondernines" I have seen had pretty big frames which required a big hand to hold them properly which probably contributed to their decline. Yes, Jeff Cooper was not enamored of the 9MM nor the JHP/JSP bullet. Don't recall a DA/SA action being a requirement, it was mainly magazine capacity.

 

[LVSteve]

There is a certain gun reviewer who ALWAYS lets you know he prefers the 1911 trigger when testing a gun that doesn't have one. I'm thinking next time he does it I'll email the magazine and ask what cheese goes with that whine.

 

[A10]

It was back in the mid 70s IIRC that the term came to be. The 59 was the first mass produces SA/DA high cap 9mm. It was around this time that law enforcement was moving to the 9mm, and there was a strong belief that the high capacity was critical if a department was going to make the move. Lots and lots of manufacturers started jumping on the 9mm bandwagon around then....btw, I had a nickel 59 then, couldn't get it to reliably feed anything but ball ammo.

 

[-db-]

Most sources state that gunwriter Robert T. Shimek coined the term in print in the early 1980s. One of the earliest uses is found in the March 1984 issue of Guns & Ammo in a review of the 1914 Mauser Pocket Auto:

Let's face it, it isn't a Wilson .45, or an N-frame Smith & Wesson, or even a double-column DA wonder-nine that has performed security duties in most households for the past 50 years...

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Ha! And hmmmmm.....looks like there's more than one answer. The movie "Serpico" came out in 1973. In it, Al Pacino, as Serpico, buys a Browning Hi-Power. I'm old enough to remember that and to remember being fascinated by that pistol. It took me 40 years to obtain one, despite being and remaining a serious revolver fan. I also recall when the gun magazines started using the term "Wonder Nine" and I really do think it was as much the high capacity magazines as anything else. I'm not sure the firing mechanism/action mattered, BICBW. That's why I asked.

***GRJ***

 

[Ranger514]

As I recall, it was all pretty much about ammo capacity and the double stack magazine that allowed higher capacity.

 

[Darkenfast]

My memory of the term is that it was applied to the 9mm's that combined high capacity magazines with DA/SA triggers. That was the combination that really made police departments sit up and take notice. Of course, detractors also started braying about how weak the 9mm was and how impossible the DA/SA system was to use. Most of this of course was fought out in the gun magazines. The hot air generated no doubt contributed to the start of global warming and probably raised the sea level a few feet all on its own

 

[Donn]

When people started actually thinking instead of giving their opinions, the nine was accepted.

Mr. RW, you may have just walked into a minefield.

 

[Smoke]

You sound young.

I'm old enough to remember when the term was first being used. Most of the early wondernines used the Walther P-38/PPK style decocker/safety lever mounted on the slide. Examples are the S&W Model 39/59 and the Taurus PT-92. Others such as the Steyr GB and later Beretta 92 used just a decocking lever. The H&K VP70 was a true DAO trigger with no single action capability and the Glock came along with its "safe-action" trigger, which everyone called double action only, but is in fact more like 1-1/2 action. The CZ75 had a frame mounted safety and no decocker. All used a so-called high capacity double stack magazine and some form of DA trigger.

Not sure how you define “young” but I’m 48.

Not that I was disputing you to begin with but I looked up the term yesterday and every single source I checked did state that the DA/SA trigger was a definitive feature of a wonder nine.

Now I wonder does that make my .40 S&W CZ75B a “wonder .40”?