world war one pilot handguns

[monsai52]

An interesting point about Frank Luke; apparently the details of his final stand against the German infantrymen didn't come out until after the war. Rickenbacker in his 1919 autobiography, "Fighting the Flying Circus" states that following Luke destroying his last balloon, "From that day to this not one word of reliable information has reached us concerning Luke's disappearance. Not a trace of his machine was ever found! Not a single clue to his death and burial was ever obtained from the Germans! Like Guynemer, the miraculous airman of France, Frank Luke was swallowed by the skies and no mortal traces of him remain!"

Arch Whitehouse in a footnote to the 1965 edition states that it was "later learned" about Luke's final stand in a church graveyard "armed only with his automatic pistol".

Arch Whitehouse also describes the death of Luke in his "Decisive Air Battles of the First World War", "A platoon of German infantrymen gave him (Luke) a chance to surrender, but the wild Arizona youth refused and tried to shoot it out with a .45 automatic. It was a hopeless gesture. Luke went down with a dozen bullets in his chest."

Best regards,

 

[max]

The new American Rifleman today has a story on the 1911 and Medals of Honor. The Luke incident is mentioned.

 

[guzzi]

This has been a very interesting thread, thanks to everyone for sharing! My Grandfather went to England in early 1918, there was a picture of him standing on the dock in NY with a S&W 1917 in a flap holster with others in his unit. My Grandmother showed me this picture from a box of early to mid 1900's images when I was a teen in the 60's, once she passed I went thru all of what was left of their pictures and half of them that I remembered were missing. My mother was one of those minimalists that got rid of anything that she thought was clutter..Including my collection of baseball cards from 1961 to 1970. I learned from this oversight and I have 3 large cardboard boxes of pictures on a shelf in the basement with a note to my kids "Do not destroy".

jb

 

[Chuck Jones]

I learned from this oversight and I have 3 large cardboard boxes of pictures on a shelf in the basement with a note to my kids "Do not destroy".

jb

Just make sure those boxes are archival quality made from acid free stock, and in no danger of being flooded.

/c

 

[Quiet Man]

Interesting topic and replies. I have a very worn Colt 1911 Civilian, made in 1914, with British proof marks on it. It has been over the pond, May have been WWI or WWII, wish I knew. My understanding is the English officers in WWII provided their own sidearm.

 

[2152hq]

Interesting topic and replies. I have a very worn Colt 1911 Civilian, made in 1914, with British proof marks on it. It has been over the pond, May have been WWI or WWII, wish I knew. My understanding is the English officers in WWII provided their own sidearm.

All the Colt Govt. Model (1911) pistols shipped to England before mid 1915 were in 45acp caliber and were commercial serial numbered guns with the 'C' prefix.
They were for retail sales and a great number went to Military personel as Officers (in WW1 at least) had the option of purchasing their sidearm from either 'military stores' or a civilian dealer.
Rule was 'caliber .455' at that time. But many disregarded that and bought the Colt 1911 45acp anyway.

Even Mr Churchill, called to active duty after resigning from the Gov't, purchased his Colt Commercial 1911 45acp for duty in France in 1915 as a Reserve Major.

The 455 S/L caliber 1911's started shipping over in 1916 for British purchasing contracts. They have 'W' ser# prefix.

Any firearm to be sold in England then or now needs to go through Gov't controlled proof. Additional reproof is necessary if certain types of work are performed on it before it can be returned to it's owner or resold.
Any surplus Military arms (sold from service) need reproof under a civilian set of standards and remarked as such before they can be resold.

 

[opoefc]

Quiet Man. British Officers in WW One had the option of purchasing their own side arms from commercial dealers, or could acquire same from military stores, if available. Most officers owned their sidearms & swords, as bought from dealers. In WW Two, the majority of officers were issued sidearms by the military, as few had their own and available civilian source were soon exhausted. In the Korean war, the British and Canadian officers I knew usually had issued Webley & Enfield revolvers, with an occasional S&W or Colt Model 1917. Ed.

 

[Quiet Man]

Thanks for the information on the Colt 1911. The pistol had hung in a large enclosed barn for a few years, stuck behind a support post and the exterior siding. It had corrosion/grime on it. I asked the owner of the barn about it, but it belonged to his son in law. The grips were removed, but I discovered them, original wood checkered, in a tool box in the same barn. About 3 years later, the barn owner asked if I would like that old pistol. I replied in the affirmative. He told me his son in law had no interest and it was doing no good hanging out there so I might as well do something with it. I quickly gathered it and the grips up, soaked the pistol in penetrating oil for a few days until I could take it apart. I carefully cleaned every single internal/exterior part and when put back together it functioned great, with the slide spring strong enough to take a chunk out of your thumb if you stuck it into the wrong place when releasing. I did have to find an original set of grip screws as I could never find the ones removed. Outside finish is gone with some pitting, but lettering is good with all patent dates and next to the Colt horse emblem, just in front of the hammer, is a crown with a V under it stamped into the slide. Serial # is C12XXX. Looked into a restoration, but to have it done right was way above my budget, so will keep it as is.

 

[2152hq]

The Crown/V is the 'view' proof mark of the London Proof House (pre-1925). It was the mark applied after the actual firing proof. The view proof was an inspection of the firearm involving both simple visual and some measuring procedures to insure the proof fireing did not stress the parts beyond acceptable limits.

The actual proof firing mark for the London Proof House at that time was a Crown over intertwined GP. That should be present on the barrel,,usually seen on the barrel visable through the ejection port.

After 1916/17,,they added an additional Nitro Proof mark to the mix. That is the commonly seen raised arm w/sword over the letters 'NP'.

Proofs missing from the barrel may point to a replaced barrel. But there are some pistols that simply missed being stamped properly at times. Stress of War time and all.

 

[Quiet Man]

After reading the last post I did check the barrel in the ejection port area and can see a crown over a V with the intwined GP above it. The V is distinct and the P, but had to use a magnifying glass to make out the other markings. Barrel has rough bore, but rifleing is visible. Glad to have the gun, but it is sad to see what the improper care has caused. Based upon the information provided in this post, there is a chance this 1911 may have seen service/use in WWI. It is of interest to me as I look this old gun over to wonder its history and I appreciate the additional information I have gleamed about the proof marks.

 

[Jack Flash]

... Even Mr Churchill, called to active duty after resigning from the Gov't, purchased his Colt Commercial 1911 45acp for duty in France in 1915 as a Reserve Major...

Very interesting!

Just knowing a bit about Mr. Churchill's later life, one might have assumed he would be very traditional and British in his selection of a sidearm, ie, a Webley Revolver.

But in the Boer War, he chose a Mauser M1896(?) Broom Handle, a cutting edge handgun of the day to be sure. And then in the Great War, an M1911. The Colt was certainly not a battle-tested war veteran at the time he bought one. He must have kept up with the latest advances in pistols, at least as a young man.

 

[Muley Gil]

PICTURES!!!!

Quiet Man,

We need PICTURES!!!!!!!

 

[Quiet Man]

I am generally a quiet man, however I am not a seasoned photographer. As I have benefited from the information shared on this thread I am happy to try and post photos of a 1911 Colt that has seen better conditioned days. This is the shape I discovered it in. As this is a forum on Smith and Wesson's I have included a favorite from that company as well. I have tried to include a close up of the crown V proof mark on the Colt above the Colt horse emblem.

 

[epj]

My father said he was issued a "Colt automatic". He was an Army aviation officer during WWl. He was offically a calvary officr, and as such wore riding boots with spurs with his uniform. The spurs were supposed to be removed prior to entering the cockpit. He mentioned that this rule was frequently overlooked, often with disasterous results.

 

[glenncal1]

QM-I wouldn't refurbish that gun, too much history, just keep it and enjoy it. Just my $.02.

 

[roger bartlett]

The WW1 Italian ace Francesco Baracca [34 kills] was shot down and pinned in the wreckage of his plane for two days. When he was finally found he had a single bullet hole in the head and a pistol in his hand.It appeared he had ended his own life.There is a small dusty museum in his home town of Lugo/Emelia Romanga, Italy where his airplane and the pistol used are [were] on display. I think it was either a Mauser or Beretta auto. I suspect most WW1 era pilots carried side arms with that thought in mind. Regards, Bart

 

[Texas Star]

How do we know about Lt. Luke's final heroism? Did the Germans finally describe it to US authorities?

T-Star

 

[1780inn]

US Officer's WWI British proofed .45 ACP Colt Government Model Pistol

Here for your viewing pleasure are photos of my WWI British-proofed .45ACP Colt Government Model pistol C 13731 which was 1 of 300 shipped to the London Armoury Company on November 18 1914. The London commercial proof and view marks (Crown/intertwined GP and Crown/V) are visible on the barrel and on the left side slide just above the Rampant Colt and frame below the thumb safety. The accompanying US Model 1912 holster is marked 1st LT G C Wilkins. The owner of this pistol was 1st Lt George Carl Wilkins, a 1918 Harvard Graduate. He entered Officers' Training Camp at Plattsburg NY in May 1917; commissioned 1st Lt Infantry August 15; assigned to 301st Machine Gun Battalion, 76th Division and sailed for France July 8, 1918. He was transferred to the 146th Machine Gun Battalion, 41st Division on November 9 1918 and returned to the U.S. on February 25, 1919. He transferred to the 153rd Depot Brigade, Camp Dix on 27 February and was discharged on 25 May 1919.

 

[1780inn]

a few more photos for detail to show London proof marks on barrel and 1912 Cavalry Model holster with name.

 

[1780inn]

Webley-Scott .455 Model 1913 Mark I Navy Automatic Pistol

Here for your viewing pleasure is my Webley-Scott .455 Model 1913 MK1 N Navy pistol serial number 3800 which was accepted into service in 1914. I found on-line an interesting article "The .455 Webley & Scott Pistol" (American Rifleman 1964) which has a chart which details both Government Contracts and Private sales deliveries by month/year/serial number. This pistol (serial number 3800) was 1 of 1919 (serial numbers 3691-5609) delivered to the Royal Navy in December 1914. It served through most of WWI. Additional photos show close-ups of 1914 military acceptance and inspection marks. Here's a link to photo of the Webley-Scott MK1-N pistol in service. Commander Samson is seen with this model pistol in hand. Gallipoli Peninsula, Turkey. 1915. The intrepid Commander C R Samson, standing beside a single seat Nieuport 10 aircraft with pistol in his hand about to start on one of his little excursions over the Turkish lines. Commander Samson commanded No. 3 Squadron, Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) Wing, based on Tenedos Island, which took part in the operations at the Dardanelles.http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/G00523/