world war one pilot handguns
- Thread starter mg357
- Start date
Skeetr57
Member
A handgun that could have been used in WWI, and that I never see mentioned here, is the Colt M1909 revolver in .45 Colt caliber. This was the last revolver adopted by the US Army before adoption of the M1911. I have one of thse seldom seen revolvers, and it is just a New Service with the model marked on the butt. Does anyone know how many of these revolvers were purchased by the Army?
FloridaFlier
Member
I can't let this go without a quick note on 'pusher props'. You may recall the Wright brothers first flight was in an airplane with a prop mounted behind the pilot. For weight and balance purposes, that was thought to be a good design. Over the next few years, as more airplanes either crashed or made hard landings, pilots insisted on the change as the structure was so flimsy that a structural failure on landing often resulted in a spinning propeller killing the pilot. A prop out in front was nearly always stopped completely on initial ground contact.
snowman.45
Member
You've got to realize, Winston Churchill was half American - from his mother.
mkk41
US Veteran
Odd this thread came back up. I recently saw a show on History or Military channel about early aviation. During WWI , planes were originally used to observe troop movement and artillery. Since the planes did not have mounted machine guns yet , the pilots would indeed try to shoot each other with handguns. That was how air combat started.
What an amazing history lesson! The S&W Forum is, far and away, the finest corner of the World Wide Web. I wish I had discovered it years ago! Damn, I love this place.
cmj8591
Member
This is a great thread. Here is a Colt New Service in .455 that was shipped to England in March of 1916. It was part of an order of 1000 guns. Most of these guns have been converted to use 45 ACP in half moon clips. It is a little rare to find one still chambered in .455. I have no idea of the history of this gun other than the shipping info from the factory letter. I have to assume, based on its condition, that it was not used in combat. It's very possible that it shipped to England and then sat in storage until it was returned to the US at some point. It just seems to have too much finish for a gun that was carried a lot.
ron farmer
Member
I do not have a clue about WW1 aviator side arms. However, I do recall reading the Eddie Rickenbacker (1890-1973) autobiography in which he said that he had never fired a gun before he began his pilot training. Thought this was interesting.
Having reread this post, it seems that US Navy and US Marine pilots were overlooked, even by this old jarhead. 
Lots of Americans were in the air over France.
"Most of these guns have been converted to use 45 ACP in half moon clips."
Most of the .455 revolvers, both Colt and S&W, that I have seen were rechambered to .45 Colt, though I have seen some rechambered to .45 ACP/.45 AutoRim, including a Triple Lock that I should have bought for $135.
Lots of Americans were in the air over France.
"Most of these guns have been converted to use 45 ACP in half moon clips."
Most of the .455 revolvers, both Colt and S&W, that I have seen were rechambered to .45 Colt, though I have seen some rechambered to .45 ACP/.45 AutoRim, including a Triple Lock that I should have bought for $135.
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mkk41
US Veteran
This is a great thread. Here is a Colt New Service in .455 that was shipped to England in March of 1916. It was part of an order of 1000 guns. Most of these guns have been converted to use 45 ACP in half moon clips. It is a little rare to find one still chambered in .455. I have no idea of the history of this gun other than the shipping info from the factory letter. I have to assume, based on its condition, that it was not used in combat. It's very possible that it shipped to England and then sat in storage until it was returned to the US at some point. It just seems to have too much finish for a gun that was carried a lot.
Your New Service is much nicer than mine. The exterior has some deep pitting and has been reblued. I was gonna rechamber it for .45 Long Colt. Luckily , I came across a few boxes of .455 Eley (Mk.I) aka .455 Colt ammo (and a few boxes of .455 Webley Mk.II) at a flea market.
Do you know the ser.no. range of the 1000 to which you refer?
Yes he did, of course posthumously. He was also posthumously promoted to 1st Lieutenant. His statue stands prominently on the grounds of the Arizona State Capitol building in Phoenix. Arizona was very proud of the hot-headed Frank Luke Jr., who was a fighter, a real maverick and marched to his own drummer as a pilot. Luke Air Force Base, west of Phoenix, is named for him, and a local car dealer here, surnamed Luke, is a relative.
He was known as "the balloon buster." He took down quite a number of German observation balloons - a very dangerous pastime as they were heavily defended by antiaircraft fire. Luke was only 21 when he was shot in flight. A single machine gun bullet fired from above him on a hilltop wounded him severely, and he was forced to land. Exiting from his plane, his only weapon was believed to have been a 1911 pistol. He was shot to death by ground fire and given a hasty grave by the Germans. His body was later transferred to the Meuse-Argonne cemetery.
Eddie Rickenbacker, the only American ace who had more kills than Luke, said of him: "He was the most daring aviator and greatest fighter pilot of the entire war. His life is one of the brightest glories of our Air Service. He went on a rampage and shot down fourteen enemy aircraft, including ten balloons, in eight days." No one else had done that in so short a time.
John
P.S. note to T-Star: The widely circulated story that Luke died with an empty magazine in his 1911 and that seven dead Germans were found in front of him cannot be verified as fact. I suspect that because he was impetuous and quite a daredevil, he almost certainly took the opportunity to do some shooting with it before he went down. By reports made at that time by the Germans, he was offered the opportunity to surrender, but refused, with predictable results.
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19,503 of these revolvers were purchased by Army. Of these, 19,153 were sent directly to the Philippines in Manila for use against the Moros. They were desperately needed, as the .38 caliber revolvers then issued were poor stoppers. Few ever came back to these shores, and probably few to none were ever used in WWI. More probably, the surviving guns saw some action against the Japanese when they invaded the Philippines during WWII. I'm also fortunate enough to own one of these rare guns, shipped in 1910, illustrated below.
John
P.S. These revolvers chambered a special .45 Colt cartridge with a bit wider rim for better extraction. Today's standard .45 Colt cartridges have a bit wider rim than the original rounds, and so work pretty well with normal extraction in this gun.
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Interesting photos. The pits on the Colt look very much like blood pitting - often found on guns used in combat and left neglected for a period of time.
John
Jack Flash
Member
Thanks and a tip of the cap to 1780inn for bringing this thread back to the front page. Also for the beautiful pictures of his historic autoloaders, they are really marvelous. Interesting to see that the ammo for the Webley is clearly marked "Not for Revolvers". I wonder if anyone ever tried moon-clipping them to see if they would fit/fire in an M1917?
I am amazed at the depth of knowledge of the members of this Forum. Thanks to all who have been so generous.
Since we are posting pix of our .455 Colts, here mine is
And here is a another comparing Dominion to Fiocchi, similar to a previous post (I tried to illustrate how the former has large primers the latter small primers):
I am amazed at the depth of knowledge of the members of this Forum. Thanks to all who have been so generous.
Since we are posting pix of our .455 Colts, here mine is
And here is a another comparing Dominion to Fiocchi, similar to a previous post (I tried to illustrate how the former has large primers the latter small primers):
jw mathews
Member
OPOEFC--
You may be interested to know that after S&W started making the Second Model HE 455s for the Brits, the factory found some leftover Triple Lock frames which were numbered in the TL series, above 5000. Thus there are some TL 455s (perhaps 600 or so) that have serial numbers which duplicate the Second Model HE 455s,
I know this because a late friend of mine had his father's revolver. His dad was a US citizen but had served in the Canadian Army in WW1 & I wrote S&W about his gun sometime during the 1970s or 80s. I gave the info to my friend; wish I'd kept a copy of it.
This has been a most interesting thread so far with much historical info.
You may be interested to know that after S&W started making the Second Model HE 455s for the Brits, the factory found some leftover Triple Lock frames which were numbered in the TL series, above 5000. Thus there are some TL 455s (perhaps 600 or so) that have serial numbers which duplicate the Second Model HE 455s,
I know this because a late friend of mine had his father's revolver. His dad was a US citizen but had served in the Canadian Army in WW1 & I wrote S&W about his gun sometime during the 1970s or 80s. I gave the info to my friend; wish I'd kept a copy of it.
This has been a most interesting thread so far with much historical info.
DWalt
Member
By the way, Luke AFB near Phoenix, is named in honor of Lt. Luke. Many AFBs are named for dead aviators.
Regarding what pilots used, my long-departed father-in-law who was a WWI pilot had a .45 Auto, according to one of his letters home in which he spoke of it. He never made it to Europe as the war ended first, and he was mustered out in early 1919 and became a coal salesman in New York state. I suspect that many WWI pilots had whatever they could get. Circumstances are sad to relate, but my wife and mother-in-law disposed of a large number of items he brought back from the Army with him, including his flying and other uniforms, and maybe even the gun, without knowing that they were worth anything. All that remains is a picture of him in uniform.
Regarding what pilots used, my long-departed father-in-law who was a WWI pilot had a .45 Auto, according to one of his letters home in which he spoke of it. He never made it to Europe as the war ended first, and he was mustered out in early 1919 and became a coal salesman in New York state. I suspect that many WWI pilots had whatever they could get. Circumstances are sad to relate, but my wife and mother-in-law disposed of a large number of items he brought back from the Army with him, including his flying and other uniforms, and maybe even the gun, without knowing that they were worth anything. All that remains is a picture of him in uniform.
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hangnoose
Member
EVEN BEFORE MY TIME
Great topic. working at a vamc from 1983- 1987 I had the privilege to speak with and view actual records of many Vets. the oldest was a Spanish American war vet and OSS officer. back in the early days of aviation pilots were hard to come by and pilots from almost any nation were welcomed to fly for various nations as "mercenaries/volunteers". the ??? escadrille in France to the flying tigers in China. it wouldn't surprise me if US pilots are doing it today. back then when canvas was used over a skeletal frame on planes an ejected round could burn or rip through the canvas, so IMO if intended use was someone other than yourself, a revolver was more likely. plus by all accounts "rules" were a bit more lax and pilots carried whatever they wanted, or more likely whatever they could find and get ammo for. LOL, they even used grenades and hand dropped bombs.
Great topic. working at a vamc from 1983- 1987 I had the privilege to speak with and view actual records of many Vets. the oldest was a Spanish American war vet and OSS officer. back in the early days of aviation pilots were hard to come by and pilots from almost any nation were welcomed to fly for various nations as "mercenaries/volunteers". the ??? escadrille in France to the flying tigers in China. it wouldn't surprise me if US pilots are doing it today. back then when canvas was used over a skeletal frame on planes an ejected round could burn or rip through the canvas, so IMO if intended use was someone other than yourself, a revolver was more likely. plus by all accounts "rules" were a bit more lax and pilots carried whatever they wanted, or more likely whatever they could find and get ammo for. LOL, they even used grenades and hand dropped bombs.
OFT II
US Veteran
Bit of trivia here. The original Luke Field was on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor. It was originally an AAC field that was later taken over by the navy before WWII.
A 5" Triple Lock Target with a bit of history
I have hesitated in posting this gun on this thread for fear that the members of the SWCA are tired of seeing it. It was the subject of an article in the latest issue (Vol. 47, No.2) of the Smith & Wesson Collector's Association Journal and it was displayed at the recent SWCA Show in Kansas City. At that show it garnered the award for the Most Outstanding Single Gun Display. But for those of you who aren't in the SWCA or haven't seen it, here is a great piece of history that played a roll in both World Wars.
In 1910 a 20 year old young man named Follett Bradley graduated from the United States Naval Academy. Ensign Bradley served two years in the Navy and then resigned his commission. He immediately joined the U. S. Army and accepted a commission as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Field Artillery. He was made a 1st Lieutenant one month later. Apparently, Lt. Bradley was happy with his new Army life because only eight months following joining the Army he ordered a 5" Target Triple Lock revolver (s. n. 7157) from the S&W Factory and had his name and service branch inscribed on the back strap.
Lt. Bradley and a fellow lieutenant named Henry H. "Hap" Arnold learned to fly in a Wright biplane and, less than two months after receiving his Triple Lock, Bradley and Arnold made the first air-to-ground radio communication. Less than a week later the two men made the first artillery adjustment from an airplane. In 1914 Lt. Bradley was assigned to the Ordinance Department, Aviation Section, Signal Corps...the predecessor to the Army Air Force.
Follett Bradley was promoted to Captain in 1917 and two months later he joined the American Expeditionary Forces commanded by General John J. (Black Jack) Pershing. He served in Europe under the Air Commander, "Billy" Mitchell, on matters of armament of airplanes and aerial gunnery. In 1918 Bradley was promoted to Major and took part in the Aisne Defensive, the capture of Vaux, and the Aisne-Marne Offensive in France. He was cited for gallantry and received the Silver Star and French Croix de Guerre with Palms.
After the war, he held several positions as instructor, director, and commanding officer of various artillery and flying groups in the United States and abroad. He attended both the Army War College and the Navy War College and was promoted to Brigadier General in 1940. General Bradley was one of the first senior officers to fly the new B-17 bomber.
Less than three months after Pearl Harbor, Bradley was made a Major General and assigned as the Commanding General of the First Air Force and the Air Force of the Eastern Theater of Operations.
In 1942 President Franklin Roosevelt summoned Maj. Gen. Bradley to the White House for a secret mission that was to have a huge impact on the outcome of World War II. At that time Hitler had initiated Operation Barbarossa against the Soviet Union and the war wasn't going well. The Russians needed assistance and M.G. Bradley was sent to Moscow to meet with Stalin to establish the Alaska-Siberia air route that allowed the US to send essential fighter planes and bombers to our Russian ally.
President Roosevelt wrote to Stalin, in part: "I am sending to the Soviet Union as my representative to conduct these conversations Major General Follett Bradley of the United States Air Corp with the personal rank of Minister. Relying as I do upon the discretion and judgment of General Bradley, I am sending him to you as one of the most able officers of the United States Army and hope that you will find it possible to discuss with him various matters relating to the air route with the same degree of frankness as that which I have charged him to discuss these matters with you."
Stalin responded: "Your message about the assignment of Maj. Gen. F. Bradley as American representative in the Conference has been received by me. As American representative he will receive all the cooperation necessary for the accomplishment of the mission assigned."
Maj. Gen. Bradley received the Distinguished Flying Cross and he served President Roosevelt in other secret missions. Following the war he had a career in private industry and he died in 1952. He was buried with full military honors in Arlington National Cemetery. Here is a brief link to his career on the National Cemetery page.
Follett Bradley, Major General, United States Army
Bob
5" Triple Lock Target
Backstrap Inscription
Note the two notches scribed in the frame in front of the cylinder
Lt. Bradley in front of the Wright Bros. Biplane
Maj. Gen. Bradley as Commander of First Air Force
Gen. Bradley with a model of the B-17
Gen. Bradley receiving the DFC
Bradley tombstone at Arlington Cemetery
I have hesitated in posting this gun on this thread for fear that the members of the SWCA are tired of seeing it. It was the subject of an article in the latest issue (Vol. 47, No.2) of the Smith & Wesson Collector's Association Journal and it was displayed at the recent SWCA Show in Kansas City. At that show it garnered the award for the Most Outstanding Single Gun Display. But for those of you who aren't in the SWCA or haven't seen it, here is a great piece of history that played a roll in both World Wars.
In 1910 a 20 year old young man named Follett Bradley graduated from the United States Naval Academy. Ensign Bradley served two years in the Navy and then resigned his commission. He immediately joined the U. S. Army and accepted a commission as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Field Artillery. He was made a 1st Lieutenant one month later. Apparently, Lt. Bradley was happy with his new Army life because only eight months following joining the Army he ordered a 5" Target Triple Lock revolver (s. n. 7157) from the S&W Factory and had his name and service branch inscribed on the back strap.
Lt. Bradley and a fellow lieutenant named Henry H. "Hap" Arnold learned to fly in a Wright biplane and, less than two months after receiving his Triple Lock, Bradley and Arnold made the first air-to-ground radio communication. Less than a week later the two men made the first artillery adjustment from an airplane. In 1914 Lt. Bradley was assigned to the Ordinance Department, Aviation Section, Signal Corps...the predecessor to the Army Air Force.
Follett Bradley was promoted to Captain in 1917 and two months later he joined the American Expeditionary Forces commanded by General John J. (Black Jack) Pershing. He served in Europe under the Air Commander, "Billy" Mitchell, on matters of armament of airplanes and aerial gunnery. In 1918 Bradley was promoted to Major and took part in the Aisne Defensive, the capture of Vaux, and the Aisne-Marne Offensive in France. He was cited for gallantry and received the Silver Star and French Croix de Guerre with Palms.
After the war, he held several positions as instructor, director, and commanding officer of various artillery and flying groups in the United States and abroad. He attended both the Army War College and the Navy War College and was promoted to Brigadier General in 1940. General Bradley was one of the first senior officers to fly the new B-17 bomber.
Less than three months after Pearl Harbor, Bradley was made a Major General and assigned as the Commanding General of the First Air Force and the Air Force of the Eastern Theater of Operations.
In 1942 President Franklin Roosevelt summoned Maj. Gen. Bradley to the White House for a secret mission that was to have a huge impact on the outcome of World War II. At that time Hitler had initiated Operation Barbarossa against the Soviet Union and the war wasn't going well. The Russians needed assistance and M.G. Bradley was sent to Moscow to meet with Stalin to establish the Alaska-Siberia air route that allowed the US to send essential fighter planes and bombers to our Russian ally.
President Roosevelt wrote to Stalin, in part: "I am sending to the Soviet Union as my representative to conduct these conversations Major General Follett Bradley of the United States Air Corp with the personal rank of Minister. Relying as I do upon the discretion and judgment of General Bradley, I am sending him to you as one of the most able officers of the United States Army and hope that you will find it possible to discuss with him various matters relating to the air route with the same degree of frankness as that which I have charged him to discuss these matters with you."
Stalin responded: "Your message about the assignment of Maj. Gen. F. Bradley as American representative in the Conference has been received by me. As American representative he will receive all the cooperation necessary for the accomplishment of the mission assigned."
Maj. Gen. Bradley received the Distinguished Flying Cross and he served President Roosevelt in other secret missions. Following the war he had a career in private industry and he died in 1952. He was buried with full military honors in Arlington National Cemetery. Here is a brief link to his career on the National Cemetery page.
Follett Bradley, Major General, United States Army
Bob
5" Triple Lock Target
Backstrap Inscription
Note the two notches scribed in the frame in front of the cylinder
Lt. Bradley in front of the Wright Bros. Biplane
Maj. Gen. Bradley as Commander of First Air Force
Gen. Bradley with a model of the B-17
Gen. Bradley receiving the DFC
Bradley tombstone at Arlington Cemetery
