Would like to hear your thoughts...41 Magnum for Police.

[GRT3031]

My understanding is the .41 Magnum was developed for Law Enforcement. Why didn't it become popular in Law Enforcement?

 

[rockquarry]

Like the .44 magnum, just too much cartridge for law enforcement use except for those who were skilled shooters. Skilled shooters are the only ones that handle heavy recoil and recover quickly from heavy recoil. Few law enforcement officers fall into such a category. The .44 magnum already had a law enforcement following, limited as it may have been.

Why choose a cartridge with lesser ballistics if it recoiled about as heavily as the .44? The lighter cast bullet law enforcement loading (by Remington, I think) was probably too little, too late and most law enforcement by nature will use the hottest ammo available, not the lightest, even if they don't shoot the heavy stuff well.

 

[Loyaljeeper]

There are many factors, the size of the 57 and 58, the fact it was still a six shooter, the cost involved with something other than a 38 or 357, and the lack of readily accessible ammo. Combine all of that with the trend towards the wonder nines and other autos.

 

[gwpercle]

The N frame was a bit heavy for all day belt carry for most officers and the ammo companies loadings were too hot for most cops needs.

My model 58 came from a motorcycle cop, he didn't have to walk a beat and he wanted something he could maybe shoot through a car with or cripple a car's motor with .

Just too much gun and the shift to semi-auto pistols killed it.
A 41 Special on an L-frame was more like what Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith had envisioned ....Elmer was a bit upset with what the 41 magnum turned into for lawmen but did like it as a hunting gun.

Gary

 

[BAM-BAM]

The the .41 magnum was the 10mm of Police revolvers...............



I remember* there was a lot of "political" debate back in the 60s- early 70s; about the time the .41magnum was introduced....... that "local" police didn't need "magnum revolvers" (mostly .357) just too much power......... so we saw the development of "Law Enforcement" only .38s........ aka..... +P.38 and +P+.38 Specials . Just another .38 to the public and to the Politicians


* While I was only a youth I remember because my Dad's primary duty gun was a 6" .357 Colt New Service.

 

[weatherby]

Because no one made a 41 special round.

 

[ken158]

I carried an issued model 58 about five years. There were many complaints about the factory 210 JHP loads being too hot and the opposite with the factory SWC loads. Ammunition was expensive, the model 58 was discontinued and the powers to be would never pony up to the cost of the model 57. The department size grew and there were no reasonable options other then trade out into a new gun and the model 66 was adopted. The 66 was a disaster from the start. We got about 100 guns and they were a mess. Myself and a volunteer took all of them to the range and fired for function. We sent about 35 back for repairs. The malfunctions were various and after discussions with S&W, we got the guns repaired and returned in short order and I got a free trip to the factory armorer's school. I kept the 66's going for a number of years before the toll of issues were almost daily. Don't recall any frame cracks but endshake and timing became a major problem. The guys lost confidence and there was an uproar to dump the 66's. We adopted the SIG 226 and never looked back to a revolver. SIG sent two of us to their armorer's school as part of the deal but other then changing a few springs and some minor issues, very little time was spent working on them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Most of the reasons listed above probably had something to do with the.41 Mag not taking hold but IMO the main reason was the start of the changeover to semi-auto pistols by law enforcement. It was a good product introduced at the wrong time.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Most of the reasons listed above probably had something to do with the.41 Mag not taking hold but IMO the main reason was the start of the changeover to semi-auto pistols by law enforcement. It was a good product introduced at the wrong time.

The 58 was first offered in 1964......... heck; we hadn't even gotten the first stainless revolvers (model 60) yet!

 

[rockquarry]

The .41 Magnum had been around more than twenty years when the big transition to semi-auto 9mm handguns began. The switch to semi-autos had very little, if anything, to do with the lack of popularity of the .41 cartridge and gun.

As for a ".41 Special" load, Remington came out with the "non-magnum" law enforcement loading that used a 210 grain lead bullet at a bit over 1,000 fps. Perhaps that was still too much in the way of recoil.

 

[Dump1567]

It did.

It just had to be down loaded and placed into a semi-auto. I't's called the .40 S&W today.

 

[BB57]

Because no one made a 41 special round.

This is almost exactly on the mark.

Skeeter Skelton, Bill Jordan and Elmer Kieth all got involved in suggesting S&W make a .41 caliber revolver.

However, the original plan was for a cartridge that would launch a 210 gr bullet at about 900 fps - pretty close to modern .40 S&W performance and pretty close to the old .38-40 in a carbine. It's a power level that gets the job done, without being abusive to the shooter.

S&W introduced the .41 Magnum in the adjustable sighted Model 57 and in the fixed sighted Model 58.

Remington introduced the cartridge as the .41 Magnum, rather than the .41 Police that Joran had preferred, as a marketing ploy after the success of the .44 Magnum.

Unfortunately, the Model 57 and Model 58 were indeed fairly popular with outdoorsman who liked magnum loads such as a 210 gr bullet at 1400 fps.

That was excessive for law enforcement use from a recoil perspective. Worse, many departments felt that even the 210 gr bullet at 900 fps produced too much recoil. Not surprisingly we're seeing the same response to day with departments moving back to 9mm pistols as some of their officers have difficulty qualifying with a .40 S&W.

The Model 58 with a 4" barrel was also considered to be heavy, but as I recall it was still only around 40 oz unloaded - about the same as a 1911 and no one whined about the 1911 being too heavy.

 

[BB57]

Most of the reasons listed above probably had something to do with the.41 Mag not taking hold but IMO the main reason was the start of the changeover to semi-auto pistols by law enforcement. It was a good product introduced at the wrong time.

The Model 57 was introduced in 1964 and the .41 magnum as a police revolver was a concept that was dead and gone before semi-auto pistol became a common trend in US law enforcement.

 

[rockquarry]

Maybe it also has something to do with a general lack of acceptance for cartridges that use a bullet of approximately .40 caliber.

I had been handloading for years when the 10MM and .40 S&W were introduced. I know little of these cartridges; never had a gun chambered for either one.

Did these cartridges ever really take off? That's not a criticism as both may be fine indeed. I did know one fellow handloader who had a Colt 10mm. It just seemed they offered little not already available in a .45 ACP with a light (185-200 gr.) bullet and probably at lower chamber pressures. Again, that's a very cursory opinion from someone with no experience with any such cartridge. Perhaps the .41 Magnum traveled in the same circles.

 

[Loyaljeeper]

The Model 57 was introduced in 1964 and the .41 magnum as a police revolver was a concept that was dead and gone before semi-auto pistol became a common trend in US law enforcement.

No doubt that is an accurate statement, but the autos were still to blame in many areas. I grew up with a grandfather in LE with lots of LE friends. I was born in 80 and can always remember grandpa and his friends talking about S&W first gen autos. If they wanted them and could afford them they could carry them. I have grandpa's 10-6 he bought in 69 or 70 just before going to an auto. Many cops were dreaming of wonder nines by 1970.

 

[Univibe]

If Harry Callahan had had a girlfriend/partner on SFPD, she'd have carried the .41 magnum.

 

[Highhawk1948]

Same reason the military dropped the .45 ACP. Too many people couldn't handle it.

 

[murphydog]

As I recall, both San Francisco and San Antonio PD issued/used the model 58. The full hunting load was not user-friendly (as noted above) and the 210 gr SWCs were soft and had a reputation for leading barrels badly. A great concept, just needed another 20 years and a semi-auto platform to make good on it...

 

[federali]

.41 Magnum. Too Much, Too late.

These threads share one fault: they begin and end with horsepower. Overlooked is whether or not the average officer, now including women and men of smaller stature, can maintain proficiency with a service arm having substantial recoil, even in a reduced "police" load. Second, consider the physical size of the gun itself as measured against those who must use and carry it.

Is the gun and or caliber suitable for off-duty use? What affect will shooting duty loads in a smaller gun have on proficiency?

The .41 Magnum was the last hurrah of the police service revolver. Whether using a .41 or .38 SPL, six rounds is six rounds and there are many instances of officers losing their lives who couldn't reload in time. So, the last fault of the revolver in any caliber is a lack of firepower and they were slow to reload.

 

[rockquarry]

federali- "Average officer..." was not overlooked, it was addressed in #3.

Off-duty use? Pretty much understood; only one frame size (and it wasn't small) available. You have a huge revolver that is not easy to conceal, regardless of barrel length.

Hard to agree that six rounds constitutes a lack of firepower if the user is a remotely competent shooter. As for a "last hurrah", revolvers remained the mainstay of police weaponry long after the .41 was introduced and failed to gain acceptance. The widespread semi-auto transition didn't even begin until years later. Another point covered in other posts.

 

[WR Moore]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. Three reasons: size, weight and recoil if you weren't using the police load.

Size: the reach to the trigger was long, which is an issue if you have smaller hands.

Recoil: the police load was a lead bullet at about 900 f/s. Pretty decent load if it could be found. It was also much more expensive than more common loads.

FWIW, I lugged an issue 1006 for about 16 years. I wasn't wild about it for the size and found the full power loads more than necessary. When we couldn't get the full power stuff anymore, there were better platforms available. Oddly enough though, we were able to eliminate our "qualification enhancement" program after adopting the 1006.

 

[hkcavalier]

Same reason the military dropped the .45 ACP. Too many people couldn't handle it.

Nope. NATO standardized the 9x19. Some Europeans were not terribly thrilled with the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 and there would have been some 'splainin to do if the U.S. kept the .45 for the next service pistol.

I never cared for the M9 but it was a demonstrably and provably more accurate pistol than the worn 1911s. The USMC had to raise their cutoffs for expert/sharpshooter/marksman due to this.

No handgun is particularly effective with FMJs, even the vaunted .45ACP.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Simply put, enough is enough and any more is too much.

Large frame revolvers, heavy and difficult for many people to handle well. Excessive recoil and muzzle blast that makes controlled shooting more difficult. Extreme penetration, not so much a problem in rural areas but a very valid concern in urban settings (where 90% of the cops live and work).

Then you must consider the time period, mid-1960's to 1970's. Anti-war protests. Anti-establishment sentiment. Anti-cop rhetoric. TV and mainstream media shedding crocodile tears about those new and devastating hollow-point bullets the cops are using to execute people on the spot, instead of shooting the guns out of suspects hands with non-lethal weapons. The beginnings of the era of liability lawsuits by contingency fee lawyers (YOU USED A MAGNUM ON MY CLIENT? WHY DIDN'T YOU USE (this or that, fill in the blank). Department heads (elected or political appointments), city councils, county commissions, etc, all wanting to distance themselves from the everyday violence and police responses (both necessary and unnecessary).

Perhaps I don't even need to mention all the young impressionable cops who watched "Dirty Harry" and "Magnum Force" several times more than necessary for cinematic enjoyment, and wanted to be the first kid on their block to drop a bad guy with a MAGNUM!

Not unlike today, but less predictable on a daily basis.

Enough is enough and any more is too much.

 

[BigMuddy]

I agree that the semi-auto had nothing to do with it. They did indeed kill the use of revolvers in LE but the 41mag was not one of those revolvers. They were pretty much 38's and 357's.

Now I wonder if it would have been introduced in something the size of the current M69? It needed a jacketed bullet that ran 950-1000 fps that expanded reliably. Those "police loads" did indeed lead terribly. My first box of factory loads were those soft lead bullets. After one cylinder I virtually had a smooth bore revolver. The rifling was painted with lead.

Probably truth be known the idea was sold by three men that were SHOOTERS, and most LEO's are/were not.

No matter, I still love the 41 Mag.

Dan

 

[M E Morrison]

The gun that fired it kicked too hard. Usually only factory ammo available was a hunting round, and it was nasty.

Skeeter and Elmer hand-loads and a change in grips helped.

I carried one for 13 years. It did the job it was designed for

All that plus it was too big and too heavy for female (or smaller men) to manage properly.

Some jurisdictions had a fit over the "magnum" designation.

 

[ko41]

Not my thoughts....





KO

 

[junglefighter]

If S&W would bring out a new revolver,identical to the M69,only in 41 Magnum I think it would sell.If they did I think ammo companies would bring out better factory ammo.I believe this would change the market for the 41 Mag.

 

[usmc2427765]

As a Texas LEO in the 1970's, I carried a Model 57 for about 9 months. The major downfall of this caliber for police work was the poor selection of ammo. Unless you wanted to handload for this caliber, you had slim pickings for ammo. The recoil was bitter and was hard to manage in double action fire. If Remington had marketed a mid range jacket hollow point, I believe it would have been more popular. Also remember, that this was the time in history that pressure was put on departments to hire more mini-cops who simply could not handle the recoil.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Different times bring different ways of doing things.Not later that this morning,I was driving on my way to a gunshow with a good friend who is a retired RCMP police officer.We were talking about the trendy plastic guns;my friend is 6'4'' and 275 and I am 5'9''220(I know,I ought to loose a few pounds...please don't anybody substitute to my wife!).Told him that while I understood that every pound upon the belt of a small statured male or female officer meant something since communication guizmos and other paraphenalia decorate the belt of the officers,he assured me that even at 275#s,at the end of the day,every pound counts.
While I've got a soft spot for the .41 cal,I must admit that the ''N'' frame police designed caliber just came in while law enforcement guys and gals were pushing towards a lighter weapon.This plus the fact that the .41 was/is not a soft kicker spelled it being dismissed.
Besides,the .41 was born exactly when the semi auto handgun as a service arm was starting to be popular(mostly in 9mm);all this being boiled down together spelled the funerals of the revolver and of the .41as a service tool.
Call me nostalgic but I must admit that with the way the cat and mouse game is being played in that crazy century(bad guys vs good guys),our good guys and gals making sure that we can sleep tight and undisturbed at night must be equipped with the best.
But to me,a good .41 in the hands of a guy or gal who can have the appropriate''gun control'' upon it is still the most reassuring view to have when and if I need help.
But that's just my 0.02$

 

[Luke Duke]

I carried an issued model 58 about five years. There were many complaints about the factory 210 JHP loads being too hot and the opposite with the factory SWC loads. Ammunition was expensive, the model 58 was discontinued and the powers to be would never pony up to the cost of the model 57. The department size grew and there were no reasonable options other then trade out into a new gun and the model 66 was adopted. The 66 was a disaster from the start. We got about 100 guns and they were a mess. Myself and a volunteer took all of them to the range and fired for function. We sent about 35 back for repairs. The malfunctions were various and after discussions with S&W, we got the guns repaired and returned in short order and I got a free trip to the factory armorer's school. I kept the 66's going for a number of years before the toll of issues were almost daily. Don't recall any frame cracks but endshake and timing became a major problem. The guys lost confidence and there was an uproar to dump the 66's. We adopted the SIG 226 and never looked back to a revolver. SIG sent two of us to their armorer's school as part of the deal but other then changing a few springs and some minor issues, very little time was spent working on them.

What loads where you shooting through those 66's in those days? I was just a kid then and own a couple 66 Smiths now. They had to be fairly hot loads.