Would like to hear your thoughts...41 Magnum for Police.

[WR Moore]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. Three reasons: size, weight and recoil if you weren't using the police load.

Size: the reach to the trigger was long, which is an issue if you have smaller hands.

Recoil: the police load was a lead bullet at about 900 f/s. Pretty decent load if it could be found. It was also much more expensive than more common loads.

FWIW, I lugged an issue 1006 for about 16 years. I wasn't wild about it for the size and found the full power loads more than necessary. When we couldn't get the full power stuff anymore, there were better platforms available. Oddly enough though, we were able to eliminate our "qualification enhancement" program after adopting the 1006.

 

[hkcavalier]

Same reason the military dropped the .45 ACP. Too many people couldn't handle it.

Nope. NATO standardized the 9x19. Some Europeans were not terribly thrilled with the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 and there would have been some 'splainin to do if the U.S. kept the .45 for the next service pistol.

I never cared for the M9 but it was a demonstrably and provably more accurate pistol than the worn 1911s. The USMC had to raise their cutoffs for expert/sharpshooter/marksman due to this.

No handgun is particularly effective with FMJs, even the vaunted .45ACP.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Simply put, enough is enough and any more is too much.

Large frame revolvers, heavy and difficult for many people to handle well. Excessive recoil and muzzle blast that makes controlled shooting more difficult. Extreme penetration, not so much a problem in rural areas but a very valid concern in urban settings (where 90% of the cops live and work).

Then you must consider the time period, mid-1960's to 1970's. Anti-war protests. Anti-establishment sentiment. Anti-cop rhetoric. TV and mainstream media shedding crocodile tears about those new and devastating hollow-point bullets the cops are using to execute people on the spot, instead of shooting the guns out of suspects hands with non-lethal weapons. The beginnings of the era of liability lawsuits by contingency fee lawyers (YOU USED A MAGNUM ON MY CLIENT? WHY DIDN'T YOU USE (this or that, fill in the blank). Department heads (elected or political appointments), city councils, county commissions, etc, all wanting to distance themselves from the everyday violence and police responses (both necessary and unnecessary).

Perhaps I don't even need to mention all the young impressionable cops who watched "Dirty Harry" and "Magnum Force" several times more than necessary for cinematic enjoyment, and wanted to be the first kid on their block to drop a bad guy with a MAGNUM!

Not unlike today, but less predictable on a daily basis.

Enough is enough and any more is too much.

 

[BigMuddy]

I agree that the semi-auto had nothing to do with it. They did indeed kill the use of revolvers in LE but the 41mag was not one of those revolvers. They were pretty much 38's and 357's.

Now I wonder if it would have been introduced in something the size of the current M69? It needed a jacketed bullet that ran 950-1000 fps that expanded reliably. Those "police loads" did indeed lead terribly. My first box of factory loads were those soft lead bullets. After one cylinder I virtually had a smooth bore revolver. The rifling was painted with lead.

Probably truth be known the idea was sold by three men that were SHOOTERS, and most LEO's are/were not.

No matter, I still love the 41 Mag.

Dan

 

[M E Morrison]

The gun that fired it kicked too hard. Usually only factory ammo available was a hunting round, and it was nasty.

Skeeter and Elmer hand-loads and a change in grips helped.

I carried one for 13 years. It did the job it was designed for

All that plus it was too big and too heavy for female (or smaller men) to manage properly.

Some jurisdictions had a fit over the "magnum" designation.

 

[ko41]

Not my thoughts....





KO

 

[junglefighter]

If S&W would bring out a new revolver,identical to the M69,only in 41 Magnum I think it would sell.If they did I think ammo companies would bring out better factory ammo.I believe this would change the market for the 41 Mag.

 

[usmc2427765]

As a Texas LEO in the 1970's, I carried a Model 57 for about 9 months. The major downfall of this caliber for police work was the poor selection of ammo. Unless you wanted to handload for this caliber, you had slim pickings for ammo. The recoil was bitter and was hard to manage in double action fire. If Remington had marketed a mid range jacket hollow point, I believe it would have been more popular. Also remember, that this was the time in history that pressure was put on departments to hire more mini-cops who simply could not handle the recoil.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Different times bring different ways of doing things.Not later that this morning,I was driving on my way to a gunshow with a good friend who is a retired RCMP police officer.We were talking about the trendy plastic guns;my friend is 6'4'' and 275 and I am 5'9''220(I know,I ought to loose a few pounds...please don't anybody substitute to my wife!).Told him that while I understood that every pound upon the belt of a small statured male or female officer meant something since communication guizmos and other paraphenalia decorate the belt of the officers,he assured me that even at 275#s,at the end of the day,every pound counts.
While I've got a soft spot for the .41 cal,I must admit that the ''N'' frame police designed caliber just came in while law enforcement guys and gals were pushing towards a lighter weapon.This plus the fact that the .41 was/is not a soft kicker spelled it being dismissed.
Besides,the .41 was born exactly when the semi auto handgun as a service arm was starting to be popular(mostly in 9mm);all this being boiled down together spelled the funerals of the revolver and of the .41as a service tool.
Call me nostalgic but I must admit that with the way the cat and mouse game is being played in that crazy century(bad guys vs good guys),our good guys and gals making sure that we can sleep tight and undisturbed at night must be equipped with the best.
But to me,a good .41 in the hands of a guy or gal who can have the appropriate''gun control'' upon it is still the most reassuring view to have when and if I need help.
But that's just my 0.02$

 

[Luke Duke]

I carried an issued model 58 about five years. There were many complaints about the factory 210 JHP loads being too hot and the opposite with the factory SWC loads. Ammunition was expensive, the model 58 was discontinued and the powers to be would never pony up to the cost of the model 57. The department size grew and there were no reasonable options other then trade out into a new gun and the model 66 was adopted. The 66 was a disaster from the start. We got about 100 guns and they were a mess. Myself and a volunteer took all of them to the range and fired for function. We sent about 35 back for repairs. The malfunctions were various and after discussions with S&W, we got the guns repaired and returned in short order and I got a free trip to the factory armorer's school. I kept the 66's going for a number of years before the toll of issues were almost daily. Don't recall any frame cracks but endshake and timing became a major problem. The guys lost confidence and there was an uproar to dump the 66's. We adopted the SIG 226 and never looked back to a revolver. SIG sent two of us to their armorer's school as part of the deal but other then changing a few springs and some minor issues, very little time was spent working on them.

What loads where you shooting through those 66's in those days? I was just a kid then and own a couple 66 Smiths now. They had to be fairly hot loads.

 

[199]

More than anything else, the model 19 killed it.

Granted, the model 19 ultimately presented it's own problems.

A loaded down .41 Magnum round in a (then non-existent) L frame could have been a different story.

 

[GRT3031]

If Harry Callahan had had a girlfriend/partner on SFPD, she'd have carried the .41 magnum.

Dirty Mary?

 

[GRT3031]

What loads where you shooting through those 66's in those days? I was just a kid then and own a couple 66 Smiths now. They had to be fairly hot loads.

I think it had to be a high volume of magnum loads.

 

[Firesticks]

41 has too much recoil for most "shooters". Police practice at the range here and most have a hard enough time hitting something with a 9mm or 40 S&&W.

 

[one eye joe]

Most of the reasons listed above probably had something to do with the.41 Mag not taking hold but IMO the main reason was the start of the changeover to semi-auto pistols by law enforcement. It was a good product introduced at the wrong time.

I NEVER SAW THE VALUE OF THE .41 MAGNUM CALIBER AT ALL---WHETHER IT BE FOR POLICE OR CIVILIAN USE.......

IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING THAT CAN'T BE DONE BETTER WITH THE .44 MAGNUN. A WEAPON CHAMBERED IN .44 MAGNUM, CAN ALSO FIRE .44 SPECIALS. THERE IS A VERY WIDE ARRAY, OF READILY AVAILABLE FACTORY AMMO, TO CHOOSE FROM---FOR BOTH POLICE DEPARTMENTS, AND CIVILIANS.....

THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH THE .41 MAGNUM. FIRST OFF---THERE IS NO .41 SPECIAL CALIBER. CHOICE AND AVAILABILITY OF FACTORY .41 MAGNUM AMMO IS LIMITED. THERE IS ALSO A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF FIREARMS TO CHOOSE FROM......

THE MOVE TO SEMI-AUTOS MAY HAVE BEEN THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR THE .41 MAGNUM AS A LEO WEAPON......

THE 9MM, OR .40 S&W---WHICH APPEARS TO BE WHAT MOST LE DEPTS ARE ARMED WITH--- WILL NOT DESTROY AN ENGINE BLOCK, LIKE A HEAVY, HARD CAST, SOLID .44MAGNUM BULLET CAN.....

IMHO---THE ONLY SEMI-AUTO CALIBER IN THAT BALLPARK IS THE 10MM, WHICH WAS BRIEFLY ISSUED TO FBI AGENTS, AND LATER RECALLED.....

DESPITE MY OPINIONS, THE .41 MAGNUM HAS A CULT-LIKE FOLLOWING. MOST OF ITS FANS ARE HAND LOADERS. SEVERAL HAVE VERY IMPRESSIVE COLLECTIONS OF REVOLVERS, WHICH HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN POSTED TO THIS FORUM......

 

[murphydog]

There is/was a .41 Special, but strictly a custom/handloader's product and introduced well into the semi-auto pistol era (late 1980s).

 

[Laketime]

This 210 grain JHP went through the tail gate and back of the front seat and into the dashboard radio of a Ford Bronco that had run me down.

I use it for a tie tack.

If I was a bad guy, I would rather have it out with two cops with Glocks then you with that 41 Magnum back in the day.

 

[BB57]

Simply put, enough is enough and any more is too much.

Large frame revolvers, heavy and difficult for many people to handle well. Excessive recoil and muzzle blast that makes controlled shooting more difficult. Extreme penetration, not so much a problem in rural areas but a very valid concern in urban settings (where 90% of the cops live and work).

Then you must consider the time period, mid-1960's to 1970's. Anti-war protests. Anti-establishment sentiment. Anti-cop rhetoric. TV and mainstream media shedding crocodile tears about those new and devastating hollow-point bullets the cops are using to execute people on the spot, instead of shooting the guns out of suspects hands with non-lethal weapons. The beginnings of the era of liability lawsuits by contingency fee lawyers (YOU USED A MAGNUM ON MY CLIENT? WHY DIDN'T YOU USE (this or that, fill in the blank). Department heads (elected or political appointments), city councils, county commissions, etc, all wanting to distance themselves from the everyday violence and police responses (both necessary and unnecessary).

Agreed.

As an example, my hands don't fit an N frame revolver as the trigger reach ends up being excessive with insufficient leverage for accurate DA shooting. I can manage a Redhawk however, and the grip stub Ruger uses rather than a grip frame on the new Super Redhawk works great as it is very adaptable to hand size by swapping grips. But none of those options existed in the late 60s and early 70s.

The smaller, and right sized for most folks, grip frame and the lighter weight were two of the attributes that made the Model 19 and other K frame revolvers so successful in law enforcement circles, along with the Ruger Security and Service Six revolver a bit later in the mid 1970s.

Politically speaking, many departments ordered '357 Magnum' revolvers chambered for .38 Special rather than .357 Magnum to allow them to legitimately claim they issued .38 Special revolvers. This allowed them to avoid the PR problem of using a 'magnum' round. Some departments stayed with .38 Special or .38 Special +P loads, while others however just ordered .38 Special +P+ loads that gave near .357 Magnum performance in a .38 Special case.

Bill Jordan anticipated the press/public reaction to "magnum" rounds being used by Police with the .41 Magnum as he recommended it be called the ".41 Police". And of course he also advocated for a non-magnum load with a 210 gr bullet at about 900 fps, since that was, as always, enough to get the job done.

Remington however demonstrated its historical ability in that era to screw up a new cartridge introduction (.244 Rem, .280 Rem, etc) by first calling it the .41 Magnum (which was a negative for many police departments) in order to capitalize on the success it had with the .44 Magnum, and then focused on true magnum loads (which was a negative for most police officers) with only limited availability of a more moderate load, and one that arguably was not well enough developed for police use - a well designed 210 gr JHP at 900-1000 fps would have been great.

 

[BB57]

No doubt that is an accurate statement, but the autos were still to blame in many areas. I grew up with a grandfather in LE with lots of LE friends. I was born in 80 and can always remember grandpa and his friends talking about S&W first gen autos. If they wanted them and could afford them they could carry them. I have grandpa's 10-6 he bought in 69 or 70 just before going to an auto. Many cops were dreaming of wonder nines by 1970.

I don't recall even hearing the term "wonder nine" until maybe 1979 or 1980, even though the S&W Model 59 had been around for almost a decade by then and others like the CZ 75 had been out for about 5 years or so.

I was required to carry one of the .357 Magnum revolvers on the approved list, and I chafed at that since I would have preferred to carry a 1911. I loved the Hi Power as well, but 9mm hollow point performance in general at that time was very poor and I had no desire to carry it, or a wonder nine, on duty.

For example the IL highway patrol was using 9mms in the early 1980s and had some notable failures with Winchester's 115gr Silver tip, which was the top performer of that era. One instance involved a biker who took 15 hits and kept going to his bike before he was finally stopped. Another IL highway patrol instance involved a suspect on PCP who took 33 rounds of 9mm before a before finally being put down with a 12 ga.

A couple years later, one of the factors that was identified in the 1986 Miami shootout was the poor performance of the FBI's 115 gr Silvertip load, failing to penetrate enough to stop one of the shooters, when their .38 +P LSWCHP load would have done the job. The FBI switched to a 147 gr subsonic load, and it was also a poor performer as it under expanded and over penetrated. They then over compensated with the 10mm, before backing the load back down to reasonable levels (which led to the development of the .40 S&W).

Some departments in that era also issued 9mm FMJ ammo and it was notorious for not only failing to stop assailants but also massively over penetrating and creating additional risk to bystanders.

So yes, the technology was there in terms of double stack SA/DA 9mm pistols, but the technology in terms of effective 9mm hollow points was severely lacking. That more than anything else kept a lot of the wonder nine "dreamers" from actually carrying one.

 

[BB57]

41 has too much recoil for most "shooters". Police practice at the range here and most have a hard enough time hitting something with a 9mm or 40 S&&W.

Absolutely. Most police officers are not gun people, and my impression is the trend keeps going down. Most folks, including my wife, don't really understand that. They are not what I would call "shooters" in the first place. Qualifying twice a year and expending maybe 100 rounds total in practice and qualification isn't sufficient to make them "shooters", and most don't have any interest in firearms outside of work and most don't engage in any handgun shooting other than for qualification purposes.

That lack of mastery of their service handgun is the primary reason for the horrendously low hit rates on average in officer involved shoots. Departments that require more training, greater currency, and more realistic training not surprisingly get better results than the average.