Would like to hear your thoughts...41 Magnum for Police.
- Thread starter GRT3031
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Dirty Mary?
I think it had to be a high volume of magnum loads.
Firesticks
Member
41 has too much recoil for most "shooters". Police practice at the range here and most have a hard enough time hitting something with a 9mm or 40 S&&W.
one eye joe
US Veteran
I NEVER SAW THE VALUE OF THE .41 MAGNUM CALIBER AT ALL---WHETHER IT BE FOR POLICE OR CIVILIAN USE.......
IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING THAT CAN'T BE DONE BETTER WITH THE .44 MAGNUN. A WEAPON CHAMBERED IN .44 MAGNUM, CAN ALSO FIRE .44 SPECIALS. THERE IS A VERY WIDE ARRAY, OF READILY AVAILABLE FACTORY AMMO, TO CHOOSE FROM---FOR BOTH POLICE DEPARTMENTS, AND CIVILIANS.....
THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH THE .41 MAGNUM. FIRST OFF---THERE IS NO .41 SPECIAL CALIBER. CHOICE AND AVAILABILITY OF FACTORY .41 MAGNUM AMMO IS LIMITED. THERE IS ALSO A VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF FIREARMS TO CHOOSE FROM......
THE MOVE TO SEMI-AUTOS MAY HAVE BEEN THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR THE .41 MAGNUM AS A LEO WEAPON......
THE 9MM, OR .40 S&W---WHICH APPEARS TO BE WHAT MOST LE DEPTS ARE ARMED WITH--- WILL NOT DESTROY AN ENGINE BLOCK, LIKE A HEAVY, HARD CAST, SOLID .44MAGNUM BULLET CAN.....
IMHO---THE ONLY SEMI-AUTO CALIBER IN THAT BALLPARK IS THE 10MM, WHICH WAS BRIEFLY ISSUED TO FBI AGENTS, AND LATER RECALLED.....
DESPITE MY OPINIONS, THE .41 MAGNUM HAS A CULT-LIKE FOLLOWING. MOST OF ITS FANS ARE HAND LOADERS. SEVERAL HAVE VERY IMPRESSIVE COLLECTIONS OF REVOLVERS, WHICH HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN POSTED TO THIS FORUM......
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There is/was a .41 Special, but strictly a custom/handloader's product and introduced well into the semi-auto pistol era (late 1980s).
This 210 grain JHP went through the tail gate and back of the front seat and into the dashboard radio of a Ford Bronco that had run me down.
I use it for a tie tack.
If I was a bad guy, I would rather have it out with two cops with Glocks then you with that 41 Magnum back in the day.
Agreed.
As an example, my hands don't fit an N frame revolver as the trigger reach ends up being excessive with insufficient leverage for accurate DA shooting. I can manage a Redhawk however, and the grip stub Ruger uses rather than a grip frame on the new Super Redhawk works great as it is very adaptable to hand size by swapping grips. But none of those options existed in the late 60s and early 70s.
The smaller, and right sized for most folks, grip frame and the lighter weight were two of the attributes that made the Model 19 and other K frame revolvers so successful in law enforcement circles, along with the Ruger Security and Service Six revolver a bit later in the mid 1970s.
Politically speaking, many departments ordered '357 Magnum' revolvers chambered for .38 Special rather than .357 Magnum to allow them to legitimately claim they issued .38 Special revolvers. This allowed them to avoid the PR problem of using a 'magnum' round. Some departments stayed with .38 Special or .38 Special +P loads, while others however just ordered .38 Special +P+ loads that gave near .357 Magnum performance in a .38 Special case.
Bill Jordan anticipated the press/public reaction to "magnum" rounds being used by Police with the .41 Magnum as he recommended it be called the ".41 Police". And of course he also advocated for a non-magnum load with a 210 gr bullet at about 900 fps, since that was, as always, enough to get the job done.
Remington however demonstrated its historical ability in that era to screw up a new cartridge introduction (.244 Rem, .280 Rem, etc) by first calling it the .41 Magnum (which was a negative for many police departments) in order to capitalize on the success it had with the .44 Magnum, and then focused on true magnum loads (which was a negative for most police officers) with only limited availability of a more moderate load, and one that arguably was not well enough developed for police use - a well designed 210 gr JHP at 900-1000 fps would have been great.
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I don't recall even hearing the term "wonder nine" until maybe 1979 or 1980, even though the S&W Model 59 had been around for almost a decade by then and others like the CZ 75 had been out for about 5 years or so.
I was required to carry one of the .357 Magnum revolvers on the approved list, and I chafed at that since I would have preferred to carry a 1911. I loved the Hi Power as well, but 9mm hollow point performance in general at that time was very poor and I had no desire to carry it, or a wonder nine, on duty.
For example the IL highway patrol was using 9mms in the early 1980s and had some notable failures with Winchester's 115gr Silver tip, which was the top performer of that era. One instance involved a biker who took 15 hits and kept going to his bike before he was finally stopped. Another IL highway patrol instance involved a suspect on PCP who took 33 rounds of 9mm before a before finally being put down with a 12 ga.
A couple years later, one of the factors that was identified in the 1986 Miami shootout was the poor performance of the FBI's 115 gr Silvertip load, failing to penetrate enough to stop one of the shooters, when their .38 +P LSWCHP load would have done the job. The FBI switched to a 147 gr subsonic load, and it was also a poor performer as it under expanded and over penetrated. They then over compensated with the 10mm, before backing the load back down to reasonable levels (which led to the development of the .40 S&W).
Some departments in that era also issued 9mm FMJ ammo and it was notorious for not only failing to stop assailants but also massively over penetrating and creating additional risk to bystanders.
So yes, the technology was there in terms of double stack SA/DA 9mm pistols, but the technology in terms of effective 9mm hollow points was severely lacking. That more than anything else kept a lot of the wonder nine "dreamers" from actually carrying one.
Absolutely. Most police officers are not gun people, and my impression is the trend keeps going down. Most folks, including my wife, don't really understand that. They are not what I would call "shooters" in the first place. Qualifying twice a year and expending maybe 100 rounds total in practice and qualification isn't sufficient to make them "shooters", and most don't have any interest in firearms outside of work and most don't engage in any handgun shooting other than for qualification purposes.
That lack of mastery of their service handgun is the primary reason for the horrendously low hit rates on average in officer involved shoots. Departments that require more training, greater currency, and more realistic training not surprisingly get better results than the average.
So what have I learned from this thread.....................
We want the "shootability" and recoil of a .22lr, ammo capacity of a KelTec PMR30....... the stopping power of a .50cal... all in a package weighing in at < 1lb and size of a S&W3913...
..anything less is a compromise!!!
We want the "shootability" and recoil of a .22lr, ammo capacity of a KelTec PMR30....... the stopping power of a .50cal... all in a package weighing in at < 1lb and size of a S&W3913...
..anything less is a compromise!!!
What practice ammo was available at that time? The cost of practice ammo is a serious budget consideration for a police department that actually mandates such training. I started in LE after the 41 magnum's demise. We were issued 10-6's and had a 55 gallon drum full of .38 wadcutters and fired for qualification monthly (six times per year mandated, but you could shoot every month if you desired). I cannot fathom what the practice/training cost could have been with the 41. There were no 41 magnum practice loads that I know of. I don't know if any manufacturer or small scale reloading company produced an economical practice round. Without that, training costs would be more than double the cost of .38 specials, if not more. The budget-crunchers would not have been fond of the 41 for that reason.
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Doug M.
Member
In the original days, factory ammo was limited to the 210 JSP and the 210 lead SWC. As far as I know, this was still true in the late 70s when I got my first two. I still have the M58, and carried it on duty in two different agencies in two different states. By the time I was in LE, there was a 210 grain Silvertip, which was pretty shootable. (My first LEOSA qual, I had to use a hunting load, I think a 210 grain Gold Dot, because I was at an indoor range that prohibited lead. It was doable, but not fun, and I made enemies.)
I do not recall any "practice" ammo, and other than initial familiarization, such is not a good idea as it is not valid training for using real service ammo. The 210 lead SWC was pretty soft shooting but did leave a mess in the barrel. It is also a large firearm to be carrying all the time, but I did it. I even still have a Safariland 070 Level III holster for the 4" N frame.
Sadly, the only people less serious about shooting than patrol officers are the political hacks above them, so actual time and money for training, along with pushing back against the political views described above, were darned scarce. The liability folklore to which I was subjected was just insane, and reflected a complete lack of knowledge.
The .41 magnum is a fine round in a very good platform, but is a niche item. Throw in the sad concept of "uniformity" and issued weapons, and it had little traction.
I do not recall any "practice" ammo, and other than initial familiarization, such is not a good idea as it is not valid training for using real service ammo. The 210 lead SWC was pretty soft shooting but did leave a mess in the barrel. It is also a large firearm to be carrying all the time, but I did it. I even still have a Safariland 070 Level III holster for the 4" N frame.
Sadly, the only people less serious about shooting than patrol officers are the political hacks above them, so actual time and money for training, along with pushing back against the political views described above, were darned scarce. The liability folklore to which I was subjected was just insane, and reflected a complete lack of knowledge.
The .41 magnum is a fine round in a very good platform, but is a niche item. Throw in the sad concept of "uniformity" and issued weapons, and it had little traction.
In the mid to late 1960s some departments were sued for under training their officers by using 38s when their officers carried .357 Magnum.
As a result many departments switched to .357 magnum training ammunition. That was one of the driving factors in the few instances of cracked Model 19 forcing cones, as the Model 19 was designed with the standard practice of .38 for practice and .357 only for carry on duty in mind.
The .41 Magnum arrived just in time for that shift in procedure as well and .41 Magnum training ammo would have been a factor.
one eye joe
US Veteran
BB57, THIS IS AN EXCELLENT POST ! ! !
MY DISDAIN FOR THE 9MM IS BASED ON EVIDENCE LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE PROVIDED.......
THERE IS NO NEED FOR ME TO BE "WON OVER" BY ADVANCES IN 9MM AMMO. THE COLT 1911, IN .45ACP, HAS BEEN MY SEMI-AUTO HANDGUN OF CHOICE, SINCE THE MID 1960s.......
I was fortunate enough to carry one off and on during my career. I had no problem with recoil, the weight of the weapon or anything else, and I am of average size. My standard carry was the 1911.
As stated in other posts, the weapon is for an officer that is interested and willing to develop good shooting skills. Unfortunately there is little interest or support for firearms skills in law enforcement these days. (I retired in 2017).
When I started in 1979 it was an honor to be invited to shoot with the old guys. I had to buy a lot of Saturday breakfasts when I lost to them in our little competitions. On some Saturdays the local FBI agents came out and shot with us, that was a good time.
In those days we shot the 50 yard qualification course. You quickly learned how important the front sight and trigger control is to accurate shooting.
The bottom line is that the 41 magnum is fine. It is the person behind the gun that matters.
As stated in other posts, the weapon is for an officer that is interested and willing to develop good shooting skills. Unfortunately there is little interest or support for firearms skills in law enforcement these days. (I retired in 2017).
When I started in 1979 it was an honor to be invited to shoot with the old guys. I had to buy a lot of Saturday breakfasts when I lost to them in our little competitions. On some Saturdays the local FBI agents came out and shot with us, that was a good time.
In those days we shot the 50 yard qualification course. You quickly learned how important the front sight and trigger control is to accurate shooting.
The bottom line is that the 41 magnum is fine. It is the person behind the gun that matters.
Kind of on the subject....................story on Fox News this week
Problems with recruiting new/young police officers......huge short fall in some areas...... nationally total officers down almost 40,000 IIRC.
NO interest in the job, don't like guns, don't like the hours...... don't want to have a job that a lot of folks shall we say........ "hold in very low regard"
My point is doesn't matter what the approved gun is ..... if you have no one to carry it!!!!!!!
Problems with recruiting new/young police officers......huge short fall in some areas...... nationally total officers down almost 40,000 IIRC.
NO interest in the job, don't like guns, don't like the hours...... don't want to have a job that a lot of folks shall we say........ "hold in very low regard"
My point is doesn't matter what the approved gun is ..... if you have no one to carry it!!!!!!!
nachogrande
Member
BACK IN THE DAY??? SURE, ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS.
Even years ago when wheelguns ruled the world, there was still the want to have everyone on the same page caliber wise. As good/great as the 41 is, as a 1 caliber for ALL, NOT the best choice, IMO. I was just thinking about back in the 90's how my Sig 239 40 cal really was a compact. Flash forward to 2018 & it went from compact/concealable to BIG/HEAVY/LOW CAPACITY, with an "almost extinct" caliber. Is it still reliable/accurate/widely user friendly, you bet. Life moves on.
Even years ago when wheelguns ruled the world, there was still the want to have everyone on the same page caliber wise. As good/great as the 41 is, as a 1 caliber for ALL, NOT the best choice, IMO. I was just thinking about back in the 90's how my Sig 239 40 cal really was a compact. Flash forward to 2018 & it went from compact/concealable to BIG/HEAVY/LOW CAPACITY, with an "almost extinct" caliber. Is it still reliable/accurate/widely user friendly, you bet. Life moves on.
Old Corp
Member
Starting LE in 1980 (and in an Eastern city at that), I well recall the adverse media mania over terms like 'magnum' and the absolute horse-hockey articles mentioning 'the Geneva Convention' and HP bullets.
My agency would/could have NEVER approved the carry of anything like a .41.
When I started, issue was a blued Colt Trooper MKIII .357, soon transitioning the the S&W M66. Issued ammo was mandated as .38 Spl +P 125 gr. JHP. (S&W brand, then later Federal).
Recall as a rookie talking to Training Staff, some who seemed pretty knowledgeable and asking how/why that round was selected.
Was told they'd tested many of the available .38 and .357 rounds for accuracy and performance in modeling clay.
I had to sorta hide my amazement when I was also told the .38 round was in large part selected due to 'not hurting an officer as much if he gets shot with his own weapon'.
At the time, it was detrimental to one's career to call BS on departmental policy, so I kept quiet.
In 1982 I was involved in a shooting with my M66 in which it did take all six rounds of the aforementioned rounds to stop a suspect attacking me with a butcher knife. The 6th round delivered to the CNS to finally stop.
The media (and Reverends Sharpton and Jackson) made much of the whole 'no way anyone should be shot so many times with a 'magnum' that would take out an engine block....etc, etc'.
Finally after 10 years with the M66, we went to the very capable M1076 10mm and later the M4566 .45.
Always felt better with them on my side.
My agency would/could have NEVER approved the carry of anything like a .41.
When I started, issue was a blued Colt Trooper MKIII .357, soon transitioning the the S&W M66. Issued ammo was mandated as .38 Spl +P 125 gr. JHP. (S&W brand, then later Federal).
Recall as a rookie talking to Training Staff, some who seemed pretty knowledgeable and asking how/why that round was selected.
Was told they'd tested many of the available .38 and .357 rounds for accuracy and performance in modeling clay.
I had to sorta hide my amazement when I was also told the .38 round was in large part selected due to 'not hurting an officer as much if he gets shot with his own weapon'.
At the time, it was detrimental to one's career to call BS on departmental policy, so I kept quiet.
In 1982 I was involved in a shooting with my M66 in which it did take all six rounds of the aforementioned rounds to stop a suspect attacking me with a butcher knife. The 6th round delivered to the CNS to finally stop.
The media (and Reverends Sharpton and Jackson) made much of the whole 'no way anyone should be shot so many times with a 'magnum' that would take out an engine block....etc, etc'.
Finally after 10 years with the M66, we went to the very capable M1076 10mm and later the M4566 .45.
Always felt better with them on my side.
I have not researched it in Law Enforcement, but in Army Recruiting, and this is true in England and Australia as well, we can't get enough kids to get in and pass the basic physical requirements. Obesity is the problem. The Army is now producing a Soldier, that once completes basic & MOS training, will still need additional physical conditioning at their first unit in order to become fit enough to do the job.
I wonder if its the point in LE.
Thank you for sharing. When I worked in Savannah a fellow officer shot a bad guy in a scuffle. Felon had a cut down single shot shotgun wrapped in electrical tape (for some reason all the low level criminal elements wrapped their guns in electrical tape back then early 90's). Anyway, the round entered his back above the lower left kidney, coursed through the chest cavity, and exited his right pectoral muscle. At the time, the guy was scaling a fence, gun in hand, and had turned to try and shoot my partner, who, being a lefty, had his gun in hand, the other on the back of the guys shirt when he fired. The guy dropped on the other side of the fence and ran 200 yards before collapsing. The load was the Winchester .38 Special 110 or 125 grain +P Silvertip. Glad you are alive. I'm sure the media was abuzz with stupid questions and comments like "couldn't you just shoot the knife out of his hand" or "he had a knife, you had a gun, why did you shoot him"
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My cousin is a Michigan State Trooper. He was involved a shooting, I want to say around 2011. Anyway, it was a drawn out fight, with the suspect using a .357 Magnum revolver, he'd already shot two people, prior to my cousin stopping him.
He got a commendation medal, and after the ceremony, one of the female Sergeants approached him, shook his hand, and said "good job, you did what you had to do, I don't know if I could ever shoot someone if I had too"
My cousin, being the career Trooper and not into politics, looked at her and asked "If you feel that way, what the F*@# are you doing in Law Enforcement?"
Was that the reason? I thought it was more for ammo capability with NATO.
gman51
Member
My LGS had a .41 near perfect for a low price. I don't remember the make, but he said being a .41 was going to make it hard to sell. Nobody wanted one. Ammo is to expensive and not all that available. It kicked like a mule and was as loud as a hand cannon.
Years ago before I was interested in guns a friend let me shoot his .41 and his .44 magnum. I shot each just one time and said I had enough of either one. I am not thrilled with hand cannons. To each their own likes.
I don't imagine many Leo would like to practice or qualify with a 41 or a 44.
Years ago before I was interested in guns a friend let me shoot his .41 and his .44 magnum. I shot each just one time and said I had enough of either one. I am not thrilled with hand cannons. To each their own likes.
I don't imagine many Leo would like to practice or qualify with a 41 or a 44.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
I have to go with bigger is better if you can handle it. I like the m58 in 41 mag. The hunters who hunt with the 41 & 44 mags have said dead is dead there's no difference in stopping power between the two. But the 41 mag has a tad more penetration.
I'll be a 45 acp Guy forever. I'm not fond of the 9mm Luger round in an pistol.
I'll be a 45 acp Guy forever. I'm not fond of the 9mm Luger round in an pistol.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Btw, I ccw a ruger super Blackhawk in 44 mag, then the RedHawks 5 1/2", 7 1/2" for over four decades. My new �� love is the 41 mag.
If I was a Leo today I'd carry the biggest caliber the department would let me that I could qualify with.
If I was a Leo today I'd carry the biggest caliber the department would let me that I could qualify with.
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What pistol do you like your .45 ACP to be chambered in?
The .45 ACP is a good round, a guy named Evan Marshall did a study of all rounds used in recorded gunfights over I think a 30 year period. If I remember right, in FMJ rounds, the .45 ACP was recorded as having a 63% one shot stop record, and the 9mm had a 60%.
Every once in a while I'll run into a die hard 1911 fan who sings it's praises, and denigrates everything else out there.
I love the 1911, it's a great pistol. I like to use this analogy to the 1911 club that insists it is the pinnacle of self defense pistols.
If you were invited to a coast to coast road race in the US where the purse was $5 million dollars, and you had a choice of driving a 2018 Lamborghini Centenario or a 1969 Corvette which would you pick? (from a technology perspective, the second choice should be a 1911 Ford Model T Roadster, but the gap in technology is too great).
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Bakebfr480
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I certainly wouldn't question Elmer Keith or Bill Jordan!!!
I believe the year was 1972. My home town (a suburb of Camden) was coping with the Camden riots, and someone found an unregistered Thompson in the station basement and let loose on the snipers that were firing on our firemen. At the same time the Philadelphia Inquirer did an expose on our police department entitled "The Cops That Couldn't Shoot Straight" and focused on many of the Department's criminal exploits. This was when they transitioned into the Model 58! A neighbor was a local cop that carried the 58 and constantly complained about the leading ... but he was the one who introduced me to the 41 Magnum.
In my home town, the department issued 41s died off because of the bad press and departmental illegalities that drew the attention of the feds. If I remember correctly, the Model 58s were replaced by HK P7M8s.
In my home town, the department issued 41s died off because of the bad press and departmental illegalities that drew the attention of the feds. If I remember correctly, the Model 58s were replaced by HK P7M8s.
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