Would you draw your weapon?

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It is more likely that an escapee would be surreptitious in his efforts until he could force a lone person to "help" him continue his escape. It is highly unlikely that he would let himself be seen by the public let alone walk into a store and ask for help.

That seems to make sense, but that wasn't how it worked with the real escapee from this May that this guy seemed to be trying to mimic.

After the real escapee killed a deputy and wounded another, he crashed the sheriff's transport van. He had no problem being seen in public. He had his jail jumpsuit on. He had his hands cuffed in front of him. He had the deceased deputy's Glock. He was walking down the middle of the street trying to carjack a car. He shot one civilian in the neck when the civilian tried to drive around him. IIRC he carjacked two more cars as he used them and crashed them. Nothing surreptitious.
 
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True, but then we have to ask ourselves, why do felons do the things they do in the first place? Their minds have to be a little fouled up, to say the least.

That being the case, I probably wouldn't take the time to analyze why an escaped felon would be running around crazy trying to bum a ride. Who knows just what goes through their minds? I sure don't.

True. But you helped make my point. We just don't know. Which doesn't give us the legal or moral right to pull a gun. Cautious? Yes. But not extreme just yet.
 
Uh...just how the heck were we supposed to know that? How were we supposed to know that "it was just for laughs?" I mean, he seemed pretty darn serious about needing a ride out of there. And just for the record, it's not Halloween. It's July, folks.

Agree. But, see, that is a nice encapsulation of the problem.

In many jurisdictions, state law doesn't offer one a defense of "how was I supposed to know?" An honest, law-abiding citizen with only the best of intentions who uses deadly force and made an honest, good faith mistake can not only be made to defend himself against an investigation and civil suit -- he can be prosecuted criminally!

Some states / jurisdictions have made a policy choice that in shorthand is essentially "using deadly force is so serious a matter that we want to discourage it in all possible circumstances that don't truly require it, and one way to discourage it is to shift all risk of even a good faith misunderstanding to the person who elects to use deadly force."

The MO statute that jlrhiner posted appears to do that with respect to a private person attempting to make an arrest -- the individual must reasonably believe certain circumstances were true . . . AND the circumstances have to be actually true!

Classic cautionary tale used to illustrate the point: citizen walking along a sidewalk passes across the end of an alleyway and sees down the alley a woman struggling / grappling with an unsavory looking guy. She screams "Help, he has a gun, he's trying to kidnap me!" Citizen draws a firearm and aims at the unsavory guy and orders him to stop what he's doing. Much additional chaos ensues for a bit . . . and at the end of the encounter citizen is cuffed and taken for booking on a variety of charges for drawing a firearm and pointing it at an undercover cop making a legitimate arrest. In some jurisdictions this citizen is really, really screwed, notwithstanding the fact that he was operating under misinformation and with good intentions.

Again I'll plug Branca's book, or Ayoob's earlier work "In the Gravest Extreme." Branca got started in self-defense law (in his own explanation) after taking Ayoob's LFI course and Ayoob wrote the foreward to the 3rd edition of Branca's book I linked to above. There are some pretty fascinating nuances around self-defense law and I think it worthwhile for anyone who owns a firearm that might be used in a SD situation to understand not just the peril they might be in in a situation calling for the use of force, but the peril they might be in immediately following a decision to use force in self-defense.
 
I'm so tainted by the internet I just presume everything is someone pulling a prank trying to get on youtube.

If I saw that guy I would think he was being way to polite to be an escape convict. Escapee's don't ask for a ride, they just punch you and take your car.
 
Uh...just how the heck were we supposed to know that?

Remember what I was specifically responding to

Being an "inmate" from a "state prison" takes him out of any reasonable protection guaranteed by law.

The guy wasn't an inmate regardless of what things looked like the guy wasn't an inmate.

So if you shoot the guy even if it's ruled 100% justified you still killed someone who didn't need to be killed.

Do you really want to live with that?
 
True. But you helped make my point. We just don't know. Which doesn't give us the legal or moral right to pull a gun.

Absolute knowledge isn't the standard in Tennessee, and is why law is written like the below...

"The person has a reasonable belief..."

"Honestly believed to be real at the time..."

It would be reasonable for a person to honestly believe a man dressed in prison garb and handcuffed to be an escaped convict, and to reasonably and honestly be in fear of great bodily harm by an escaped convict running at them.

The idea that a reasonable person should assume it's just someone practicing for Halloween in July... uh no...
 
Absolute knowledge isn't the standard in Tennessee, and is why law is written like the below...

"The person has a reasonable belief..."

"Honestly believed to be real at the time..."

It would be reasonable for a person to honestly believe a man dressed in prison garb and handcuffed to be an escaped convict, and to reasonably and honestly be in fear of great bodily harm by an escaped convict running at them.

The idea that a reasonable person should assume it's just someone practicing for Halloween in July... uh no...

Understood. But my point all along is that not everyone interprets or even enforces the law same the way that we may understand it. You may think your actions are legal until you're in the court room. Black and white isn't always black and white in other peoples eyes.
 
Understood. But my point all along is that not everyone interprets or even enforces the law same the way that we may understand it. You may think your actions are legal until you're in the court room. Black and white isn't always black and white in other peoples eyes.

Of course it's not black and white absolutes... that's why the word reasonable is used in law when it comes to these type of things.

I'm sure you saw the still pic from the vid I posted earlier. A man who is clearly identifiable as a escaped convict is running up on the man in the dark red shirt. If he pulled his gun at that moment I would find that reasonable, you?
 
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The guy wasn't an inmate regardless of what things looked like the guy wasn't an inmate.

So if you shoot the guy even if it's ruled 100% justified you still killed someone who didn't need to be killed.

Do you really want to live with that?
How do you know he didn't need to be killed? I don't know, and would act accordingly.

But if somehow there did occur a killing ruled 100% justified, I would live with it. I would not want to live with it, but I would manage to, and I would not blame myself. Neither should you. The guy in the prison wear would be 100% responsible for the situation he intentionally created. The only people who would share any blame would be those who helped to teach him that he could get away with doing such stupid stuff.

Now go play in traffic.
 
Remember what I was specifically responding to



The guy wasn't an inmate regardless of what things looked like the guy wasn't an inmate.

So if you shoot the guy even if it's ruled 100% justified you still killed someone who didn't need to be killed.

Do you really want to live with that?


Just for the record, Smoke, I don't value your life anymore than you do. Now, thats not directed straight at you. Thats a general feeling about everyone. If you are willing to forfeit your life for a prank you get what you deserve.

And regardless of all the emotion, I would draw my CCW and place him at gunpoint until a LEO arrives. I would prevent him from leaving my presence until a Law Enforcement Officer said he was free to leave.

Earlier in the thread Muss said he thought an "elbow to the face" was appropriate. So what happens if that is ineffective. Or allows the nimrod to get closer and more aggressive? Is that less of a penalty than placing him at gunpoint?

You folks go ahead and hash this out. I've been carrying a firearm concealed for >35 years. I've never been arrested, (well, not in the USA. There was this one time in Mexico.....nevermind) discovered, or caused serious social problems. I have had the occasion to draw my firearm twice. I think I'm pretty levelheaded and very good at threat assessment. The actions of the nimrod in the OP's post would have governed my response. I would have drawn my CCW. I would have held him at gunpoint. I would have shot his worthless butt if he attempted to flee.

He was playing a game. I'm not. His actions are just as important as mine.
 
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