Your thoughts on handguns and ammo in general.

coltle6920

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I'm not necessarily talking about what was used 100yrs ago but rather what's available today. I'm not that familiar with long guns so can we stick to handguns?

On the upper end there seems to be more difference between calibers and their effectiveness. On the lower end it seems to be more of a marketing thing to sell more firearms.

Do we really need .25acp, .30super, .32acp and .380acp or are we just catering to the new and uneducated? Seems to me we'd have more ammo available if the brass wasn't used for what I consider unnecessary calibers.

Is this worth discussing?
 
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I'm not necessarily talking about what was used 100yrs ago but rather what's available today. I'm not that familiar with long guns so can we stick to handguns?

On the upper end there seems to be more difference between calibers and their effectiveness. On the lower end it seems to be more of a marketing thing to sell more firearms.

Do we really need .25acp, .30super, .32acp and .380acp or are we just catering to the new and uneducated? Seems to me we'd have more ammo available if the brass wasn't used for what I consider unnecessary calibers.

Is this worth discussing?


Yeah we do really these smaller guns and calibers. Because most of us don't carry a full bat belt full of stupid **** we are not gonna use. Not gonna carry a G30 in my pocket with even 1 reload. Certainly don't need weapon light on my daily carry.
 
All that stuff has SOME level of utility. The .32 auto USED TO BE considered a reasonable police caliber in much of Europe. It is also a useful caliber for someone who is wildly recoil adverse. With advances in bullet and powder the .380 has moved up (IMHO) from sub-marginal to marginal. The .25 ACP is good for practice shooting in your basement if you are rich because the ammo is hella-expensive right now. It is also a good caliber to protect you from hamsters and smaller rats. I still haven't quite figured out the .30 super carry but since I can't buy one in CA I don't intend to worry about it that much. (I am, admittedly, strange. I also load and shoot .30 Luger, .30 Mauser, 8mm Lebel revolver and .30 Russian Nagant.)
 
Have a Glock 43x and a Ruger LCP Max with the trigger pivot safety thingy.
Adapting to the Glock, not liking the Ruger.
Just the other day was shooting the Ruger in sequence with my Runt Kahr.
I seem to feel more recoil from the Ruger 380 than I do the Kahr 9mm.
Say What?
And I prefer the Kahr trigger.
Long and steady. To us long time Revolver shooters, just like shooting Double action.
But - But these ain't range shooters.
Pocket Rockets.
With 380 running about 60 cents a round, how much are you gonna shoot?
But if I see a Kahr 380 priced right, I could buy one!
 
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Hot new items, be they electronics, or guns, or ammo are dreamed up by the hundreds if not thousands a year in college Industrial Design classes every year! It is good mental exercise. (my son alone, did dozens!) Just because it is thought up does not mean it is needed or close to necessary.

Some new objects update old functions and improve cost or operating life or replace costly components. Some are brought to market just to sucker people out of their money!

Some would ask, "What is the one gun to do everything?" The true answer is: We are Americans, we are in possession of the God given right to have a gun to do every single thing, including just look at! We also have the God given right to not bother owning a gun, We can use a club if we wish to go Bear hunting.

So one more redundant cartridge is not a problem. The market will decide if it wants the newest Whizzbang gun or cartridge. The circus hucksters can call our attention to them, but the will of the people will prevail if allowed. to do so!

New designs, are just one more form of capitalism. Limiting production is just one more form of socialism.

Ivan
 
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Yeah we do really these smaller guns and calibers. Because most of us don't carry a full bat belt full of stupid **** we are not gonna use. Not gonna carry a G30 in my pocket with even 1 reload. Certainly don't need weapon light on my daily carry.

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense to me. You can buy a small firearm in a larger caliber and capacity. You can also buy a large firearm in a smaller caliber but large capacity. I have some of both.

So what are you really saying without the **********'s.
 
If you are going to carry a handgun small enough and light enough, you should probably choose a smaller cartridge. If a micro automatic isn't pleasant in 380 ACP, it certainly won't be any less painful in 9mm Luger. People who try 357 Magnum snub nose and don't like it switch to 38 Special for a reason.

Just because they make small automatics in 9mm Luger doesn't mean they are better or a better choice than a similar size handgun in an old compact cartridge.

So, yes, they have a place, and always will. Physics never changes, recoil and muzzle blast don't change by magic.

If you want a more powerful cartridge, you will likely want a larger handgun. If you absolutely want or need a smaller handgun, you might want to move down to 380 or even 32. Simple stuff, and yes I'm being redundant.

I'll just say in passing, even though you say what you said about long guns, the old cartridges and bullets from 100 years ago are just as good as anything today. That is a subject that hasn't improved one bit in the last 120 years. Handguns are the controversial topic over the last few decades only because of propaganda defending government choices, as well as the objective change in bullet designs and performance.
 
My great uncle shot a criminal with a 7,65 Browning in the uprisings of the marxists and the Spartacus league in the 1920s in Stettin. The culprit dropped and stopped the assault and died without further ado, ask him.

The 7,65 Browning or .32 ACP is capable of great accuracy - in the right hands, that is.
 
I've never shot anything less than .380 ACP, which is definitely a worthwhile round, basically the semiautomatic equivalent of standard pressure .38 Special which is great for both concealed carry as well as a round which offers low recoil yet adequate performance, albeit not in the same type of pistols. (i.e. pocket pistols like the Ruger LCP are excellent for concealment, but tend to have snappier recoil, whereas larger .380 pistols like the M&P380 EZ have low recoil yet aren't as easy to concealed carry.)

From what I've seen, .25 ACP is terribly anemic, even a .22LR fired from a pistol is generally more effective. .32 ACP seems to be pretty close to .380 ACP, but underperforms with hollowpoint ammunition, thus rendering non-expanding full metal jacket ammo necessary.
It's still too soon to say for sure whether there's any legitimate advantage to .30 Super Carry over .380 ACP or 9mm Parabellum, but it just seems like a compromise between the two that doesn't quite offer the advantages of either. (i.e. guns aren't a small/lightweight as .380, yet not as powerful as 9mm) That being said, I'm sure that it's plenty effective, just not as practical, but it could easily be somebody's Goldilocks round.
 
Auric Goldfinger was known to carry a .25 ACP and made up for the lack of power by shooting people in the eye.
 
What ever you have, practice and get good with it. Glad ammo is available in many calibers again.
 
Most of the guns I own I would never carry for SD. I own guns in calibers: 22, 25, 32, 380, 38-55, 30-06, 30 carbine, 9mm, 357, 45Colt, 45-70 blah, blah, blah that are super duper guns great collectibles, great shooters and full of history and nostalgia. Most have no real practical purpose but I would buy most of them again. I also own a bunch of "cowboy guns" (45 Colt - Single Action Army Revolvers) that unless they are all I had available I would not use as SD guns either. Still, they would be some of the last guns I'd ever sell.

This hobby is more than just about "need".
 
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I have a Ruger LCP Max .380 that I pocket carry. I have both the 10 round and 12 round mags. It pocket carries very easily. There may be some 9mm guns that I could carry as easily (?) but at the cost of capacity. So, for me the .380 fulfills a role that the 9mm doesn't. It's my church carry gun. I like having the option of pocket carry.
 
I have them and shoot them, and other calibers that might seem "unnecessary" to some.
But isn't that like some anti gun folks saying we don't need any guns at all?
 
I won't quote the comments I disagree with but we'll discuss some of them here.

.380 ACP

.380 ACP has come a long way with better hollow point designs, as did 9mm 30 years ago and it's an acceptable self defense round, despite the lingering caliber snobbishness here in the US that decrees anything less than 9mm Luger isn't sufficient.

I have both a Kimber Micro and a Kimber Micro 9. The .380 ACP Micro has more tolerable recoil and more likely to encourage more practice. More importantly the Micro in .380 can be recovered faster under recoil allowing you to get more A zone hits in the same period of time than it's slightly larger Micro 9 sibling.


.32 ACP

.32 ACP hollow points have made much of the same progress as .380 hollow points. The 60 gr XTP will penetrate 12-13" and expand reliably provided you launch it from a 4" barrel at velocities of at least 1050 fps (and 1050-1100 fps is the norm with the Fiocchi load) - just like the 90 XTP in .380 ACP.

The 60 gr Hornady Critical Defense expands reliably as well at 4" velocities around 1000 fps and penetration is still 10-11".

Similarly, the Speer 60 gr Gold Dot gives pretty reliable expansion and 10" penetration when launched at 4" 1000 fps velocities.

Some self defense "experts" will say that isn't sufficient, but armed citizens are not shooting fleeing felons at odd aspect angles and are almost always going to to be shooting in a face to face aspect engagement where 10-11" is plenty.

When you further consider that about 95% of all self defense uses of a handgun don't involve actually firing the handgun, and that in the remaining 5% the assailant stops the assault as soon as he or she is shot about 50% of the time regardless of caliber .32 ACP is clearly good enough.

There's also some interesting data out there showing higher stop rates for .32 ACP than for 9mm, although there are several confounding variables in the mix, such as experience/skill of the .32 ACP shooter, use of FMJs in the 9mm, etc.

In the right hands, .32 ACP will get it done and when compared to the .380 ACP in the same model pistols it usually offers 1 more round in the magazine and will enable a well trained shooter to get more A zone hits in the same period of time than the same shooter and pistol in .380 ACP.

.32 ACP is also very recoil friendly and is a good choice for a female shooter with small hands or a geriatric shooter with arthritis who might not otherwise be interested in both carrying a firearm and practicing with it. In the Beretta Tomcat, it is also an ideal choice for someone with limited hand strength who can't rack a slide.

The caveats here are that even more so than the .380 ACP the .32 ACP is takes a big hit in shorter barrels and with a 2.75" or 3" .32 ACP don't bet on getting consistent expansion. But on the other hand when you don't, that failed to expand hollow point will act just like an FMJ.

From that perspective 71-73 gr FMJs or 73-75 grain hard cast bullets only make sense for a shooter with a shorter barrel and or who values penetration. A hot loaded 73 gr FMJ like the Fiocchi load at around 850 fps in a short barrel will still give 16-17" of penetration, and in a 4" barrel it will give 20-21" penetration in ballistic gel.


.25 ACP

Forget expansion and don't bother with anything other than a 50 gr FMJ. But that said, even a Beretta 950, 950B or 950BS will give you 12" penetration in ballistic gel. By the 95%/5%/50% defensive handgun use data above, it's still sufficient. Not anywhere near my choice, but it's a huge step up from nothing.


——

Some of the newer cartridges.

.327 Federal

It's a great short barrel revolver round and offers a nice step up from .38 Special. But at present the effective self defense hollow point options are limited, if you're into the FBI ballistic gel standards. Still, the 100 gr Gold Dot does pretty well in both 2" and 4" barrel lengths and the 85 gr Hydra Shok isn't far behind.

It needs more ammo development, but sadly I don't think it's going to stay around long enough in sufficient numbers to get it.


.30 Super Carry

I don't have any direct experience with it and have not done any ballistic testing with one, so I'll refrain from commenting other than I'm not seeing the niche it is supposed to fill.

Still, weird things happen. For example the .350 Legend doesn't do anything ballistics wise that the .38-55 and .375 Win can't do as well or slightly better. But it's very popular in Midwest states because Winchester lobbied hard for straight wall "pistol" case rules that favor it, and it's popular elsewhere because it fits in an AR-15 upper and lower.

——

Someone commented that we as Americans have a God given right to carry firearms. That's a dangerous belief to hold because it's just not true. Our 2A rights stem from a compromise made by the founding fathers to adopt the Bill of Rights as a necessary step in getting the Constitution ratified.

The 2A is a right given by humans that can be taken away by humans, and we need to be very careful never to forget that. We also need to understand that it's just an add on in a Constitution that was focused not on individual liberty but rather on creation of an environment conducive to commerce and acquisition of property.

That's never been more relevant than it is today with a legislative branch owned by big business and rich folks, an executive branch that is equally beholden to those same rich folks, and a judiciary that has become beholden to those same big money interests.
 
I have no need or desire to own many if not most of the available handgun cartridges being well served by only a select few. But that doesn't matter. Others have different needs or wants.

In the end, the buying public determines what the manufacturers produce. If enough people want a given cartridge it will be made. If not, it disappears. Th same thing applies to the guns that shoot them.
 
32 ACP is an under appreciated caliber today. As someone said, it was the European police caliber for 60-75 years. With the factory and hand loadings available today, I actually prefer it to .380. Less recoil and comparable, if not marginally better ballistics.
 
I'm always on the lookout for guns in calibers which I don't already have. Its enjoyable to learn about them.

During the Chicken Little Ammo Panic I once saw three lonely boxes of ammo on the otherwise empty expanse of shelves at Cabelas. Turned out to be Fiocchi .30 Luger! Yoink!

Another time Sportsman's had nothing but a box of .38/40s, which I also yoinked.

Early on, Cabelas had a stock of .357 Sig with a big sign over it: THIS WILL NOT WORK IN .357 REVOLVERS. NO RETURNS! It did, however, work just fine in my Sig P320.

I don't reload anymore. I never did really like it. When I find a box of ammo for one of my oddballs I buy it and shoot it. So far I've been able to shoot everything I own, including .41 Rimfire and most recently .351 WSL.

So no, I don't think ammo companies should stop loading low demand cartridges in favor of 9mm and .223.
 
Regarding the number of different calibers, I believe it is important to remember one size does not fit all needs.

Handguns, since coltle6920 requested we limit our discussion to those firearms, have continued to evolve usually focused on increasing the number on rounds that can be fired before a reload is necessary.

Then we have the focus on improving the accuracy.

An overlooked issue, I believe, is the focus on the rounds and the development of improved bullet design and function.

Whether it is self defense, combat, hunting, target shooting, and even plinking, the bullet is what gets the job done. The handgun is primarily the launch platform.

I believe if we understand the evolution of the bullet, we will be able to better answer his question.

I have handguns in most of the common calibers listed and would add the .357 Sig as one that might be considered in the "why" column but dang I sure do like it as my primary off duty sidearm.

I hope you find this helpful.
 
I'm a big believer of a single carry gun. I carried a 6906 from 1994 until 2021, not what I shoot best but the best compromise of accuracy, capacity and effectiveness. I carry a CZ P07 now, shoot it better but it is a large chunk of artillery. I have several "Centennial" .38/,357's and will carry one occasionally when dress precludes the CZ. I had a NAA .32acp which I really liked but my middle finger rested on the mag release button and dropped the mag almost every shot. A European heel release would solve that but a Seecamp is just too spendy for a gun I won't carry much. Joe
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Regarding stopping power in older calibers, along with the newer but still less-than-standard ones….

My own $.02 is that since I've long settled on my caliber choices and their platforms for saving my bacon, bump-in-the-night isn't a factor in my thought processes when I think about the "other" calibers.

Their appeal for me personally is that they give the opportunity to get to experience shooting some old and extremely well-made firearms that happen to have been chambered as standard in some of those cartridges. For example, if you want to experience shooting a Colt Vest Pocket or 1908, if there's no .32acp or .308 ammo, they're just lovely, albeit inert, pieces of industrial art from decades past. What a shame it would be to see all those examples of artistry and craftsmanship from a time no longer in existence to just rust away from apathy and practical redundancy.

Why, it would be a SIN, I say! [points index finger indignantly skyward]

I still mourn the knowledge that I'll never get to fire a WW1 Montenegran Rast & Gasser revolver and it's 12.5mm thumper cartridge for the exact reason I mentioned, just to use another example.

For other degrees of coolness on such things, Ian, aka Gun Jesus of Forgotten Firearms on YouTube has one of the coolest jobs that could be had IMO.
 
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This entire thread is not only ridiculous, but totally laughable.

The title Reads:

"Your thoughts on handguns and ammo in general"

Then the post proceeds to disregard every single sporting, competitive, and recreational use of handguns.
Everything is excluded except self defense/concealed carry, yet claims to discuss "handguns and ammo in general".

If that's your bag, then post in the "concealed carry & self defense" area of the forum, not the "Firearms & Knives-Other Brands" area.

And you talk about "catering to the new and uneducated"?????

Give me a break!!!!
 
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