In a nutshell.......How do I begin zeroing a Red Dot scope for very short distances? Let me explain. Where I live we do a discipline called Mini Rifle. It's a bit like Practical Pistol except we use .22 rifle (in the UK we can't have any semi auto rifle other than .22) and it's great fun. Googling the subject, it seems that Mini Rifle is not an American thing. I might be wrong. Typically, we shoot from 35 yards, 25 yards right up to 10 yards and on an indoor range shorter than that. Like I said, think Practical Pistol with .22 rifle. I use my S&W 15-22 with an Aimpoint knock-off on top. The red dot is surprisingly accurate. The problem is at such short distances, how do I zero it? If I zero for 35 yards and charge forward to 20 then 10 yards the red dot has less and less meaning. Impossible to miss at those ranges???? It's possible. Any thoughts.
Zeroing for very short distances.
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Arik
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Not unless you have more than one dot/shevron on your reticle or you know how to readjust for distance every time. Otherwise I zero for 100 yards (Yes I know longer distance. I don't shoot 22lr). So in your case I'd zero for 35. You'll still be on target at closer distances
I'd zero for a mid range distance if that's primarily what you're shooting (ie, if the range is 10-35 yds, then zero for 20 yds).
The POI shift *shouldn't* be much; aim a little high for 10 yards, a little low for 35 yards. Thus, if you're moving in towards the target, any muzzle rise should be compensate for sighting automatically.
See the attached chart (or this ballistics calculator) for an idea of what you're looking at.
The POI shift *shouldn't* be much; aim a little high for 10 yards, a little low for 35 yards. Thus, if you're moving in towards the target, any muzzle rise should be compensate for sighting automatically.
See the attached chart (or this ballistics calculator) for an idea of what you're looking at.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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If you have your optic mounted at standard AR height, it's about 2.5in above bore.
Approximately.....
10yd zero
20yd 2in over
30yd 4in over
10yd 1in under
20yd zero
30yd 1in over
10yd 1.5in under
20yd .5in under
30yd zero
Approximately.....
10yd zero
20yd 2in over
30yd 4in over
10yd 1in under
20yd zero
30yd 1in over
10yd 1.5in under
20yd .5in under
30yd zero
As I read Sith's chart, it is for a scope mounted about 1 3/8" above bore (a common rifle scope height), so you need to add in the difference in your actual sight height above bore. Look at the zero range mark on the chart.
Chattanooga's already is using a 2 1/2" height above bore.
The sight height is critical at close range.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Sometimes things can seem more complicated than they really are.
All the information is POI (point of impact) in relation to POA (point of aim)
For example... 10yd zero.
10yd zero
20yd (bullet will impact) 2in higher than (your aim)
30yd (bullet will impact) 4in higher than (your aim)
You got three targets at 10, 20, 30 yards. If you aim at the 10yd target the bullet should strike where your red dot appears (zero). At 20yds, the bullet should strike 2in higher than where your red dot appears. 30yds..... 4in higher.
So.... if you want the bullet to strike a bullseye at 20yds, you would hold the red dot 2in below the bullseye.
Got it?
Now all you have to do is look at how the different zeros operate and pick the one that is best suited for what you are doing. The 20yd zero is practical without having to fool around with holding under or over for fast target acquisition, just point and click. The 10yd zero would only be practical if 90% of all the shooting is at 10yds at a very small target. The 30yd zero is also practical for fast target acquisition without fooling around with holding over and under other than just holding tad over at the very close targets.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Right. For an AR it's usually about 2.5in sight over bore. And that's why I specifically mentioned it because without that number you can't calculate trajectory in relation to line of sight.
Thanks for that. I think I understand it now. I had noticed that if I am at 30yards I could hit the little coffin target if I aimed low....against everything you thought you knew about. I blamed this on the cheap red dot scope. I now look at the little thing with renewed respect.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Right. As we talked about earlier, the biggest issue with the AR platform is the 2.5in sight over bore distance. If you use a short distance zero things can get counterintuitive in a hurry when taking longer shots.
Using that 10yd zero, if you aimed at a bullseye 100yds away your bullet would strike nearly 10 inches above the bullseye.
tomcatt51
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Yes, sight in for 35 yds or your longest distance. Hold high at the the closer distances.
Depending on the size of your scoring rings you may not even need to hold high at the closer distances.
On Saturday my scores fell apart at the 35 yard line. Simple little coffin shape targets, about 8 inches high. Several mikes on 5 targets. This was bad. I will zero at 35 yards because this is where my scores are worst and as I advance to 20, 15 and 10 hold high. A,C and D zones are important but missing is soul destroying. So, .22 is a small calibre and really easy right? Wrong.
photoracer
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We have disciplines here that involve rapid steel target shooting. Targets can be as close as 10 yards or as far as about 35 yards. Some like Steel Challenge have the same 8 stages of 5 targets every time. It was originally designed as a kind of practice discipline for USPSA (same as IPSC) but it has shooters all its own these days. We also have NSSF Rimfire Challenge (formally Ruger Rimfire Challenge) in this you can have as many as 7 targets per stage and the number of stages depends on the tier level of the match. No running is involved. You have to shoot both .22 pistol and .22 rifle. With targets between 10-35 yards we generally zero at 17-20 yards. And because the targets can be as small as 8" or as large as 18x24" we don't bother to adjust our aim because even if it shoots low or high it will still be on the target because even an 8" target at 35 yards is something more than 25 MOA. I generally use the same zero when shooting USPSA action pistol (IPSC) because my gun shoots very flat and trying to adjust for rise or fall slows your shooting down. Only on really close shots on paper where the sight height and parallax might cause you to hit lower than you want does thinking come into play. If you have to shoot on the move like we do in 3-gun shooting I still don't bother to adjust my sight picture on the AR because of target size and the scoring rules. I zero the AR at 100 yards and use either offset iron sights or red dot depending on the division I am shooting that match zeroed at about 25 yards. We shoot similar type targets like yours in USPSA (and IDPA) with scoring zones.
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I'm going to the range tomorrow and try to find what suits my shooting style. The stages that were closer were good for me cos I could see the holes appear and adjust to the A box. It was the 30 yard line that the wheels fell off. It's all about confidence. I tried pulling up thro the target and pull. I tried pulling down thro and pull. All guess work. I will fix it.
Ok I went to the range. Had it all to myself. I used the rest to zero the Aimpoint M4 to an impressive degree, from 30 yds. The trigger on the 15-22 isn't sweet and takes some controlling. After satisfying myself that the Reddot was "On" I tried standing off hand shooting. Difficult. I could make 2 hits on the little 8inch high coffin targets but not A box accurate. But I could get 2 hits fast which is important. Going forward to 25, 15 and 10 yards the hits got easier, accurate even, as long as I held over an inch or so. So I'm much happier now and feel I'm in some control of the rifle.
GhostMutt
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Some points to look out for (as far as my experience goes, FWIW) try not to apply lots of pressure on the handguard...make it a consistent, repeatable grip. It can lead to polymer flexing issues which can impact accuracy...making sure that your optic is mounted on the upper and not on the handguard also is important to avoid flex issues. If your groups are really 'out there' maybe consider investing in a barrel nut wrench and making sure that the barrel nut has not worked loose, which is unlikely on a new rifle but possible.
Welcome to the wonderful enigma that is the 15-22...still looks and plays better than the SIG, HK, Anschutz, Beretta and Rugers AR variant .22lrs. Sure they may have less 'issues' but complicated ladies are my thing
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mid range
I think this is the way to do it. Use 'Carolina elevation' (that's kinda like Kentucky windage) on the nearer and farther targets. A trip to the range to test this out should give you almost a perfect idea of how to shift your POA. Shoot dead center and see where the bullets go at each range. That will give you how much correction you need.
I think this is the way to do it. Use 'Carolina elevation' (that's kinda like Kentucky windage) on the nearer and farther targets. A trip to the range to test this out should give you almost a perfect idea of how to shift your POA. Shoot dead center and see where the bullets go at each range. That will give you how much correction you need.
When I get the time and a couple-a-hundred minimag put aside I will try the mid range 20 yard line. Just to see. The main thing for me, is having control of the rifle. 30 yard zero give me confidence and I was making hits on the little target. Trigger control is next although I'm not sure what else to do. ghostmutt has a good point, I never considered flex.
tomcatt51
Member
Actually, investing in a good trigger group wouldn't be a bad idea.
As to "flex" being an issue, if you're shooting off-hand without a sling it's most likely NOT an issue.
GhostMutt
Member
Totally with you on that.....going for the Hiperfire 24c myself, just waiting for one to become available in the UK....been waiting for a while now...hopefuly soon
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