Rodinal220
Member
What exactly is "combat accurate"??? Please be specific.
Apex barrel
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What exactly is "combat accurate"??? Please be specific.
Combat Accuracy specifics are some vague and you should know that
as combat accuracy is only what a given person can manage standing and firing a given handgun at a target so pick out a military or LE qualifying course of fire to try using the same spec target and see what you manage to do with in the time allowed like say the FBI qualifier and that one is not hard to manage .
Pass it and your combat accurate for what ever that's worth . May be better than others or worse than others but still CA .
Now what a good handgun and shooter can do in the video below -
OWc5Ghx_1gI
as combat accuracy is only what a given person can manage standing and firing a given handgun at a target so pick out a military or LE qualifying course of fire to try using the same spec target and see what you manage to do with in the time allowed like say the FBI qualifier and that one is not hard to manage .
Pass it and your combat accurate for what ever that's worth . May be better than others or worse than others but still CA .
Now what a good handgun and shooter can do in the video below -
OWc5Ghx_1gI
LVSteve
Member
From what I have read on the Internet, combat accuracy is what can be achieved with a standard issue weapon using mass produced ammo. If you visit places like the Box o' Truth website, you can see tests of AR-15 type rifles with various ammunition where it becomes clear that the ammo is often the limiting factor. Standard issue 62 gr, 5.56 NATO ammo rarely does better than 3"-3.5" groups at 100 yards regardless of the weapon. Yeah, it surprised me, too.
Having read a slew of range reports on American Rifleman and other places, the same group size is often true with mass produced handguns at 25 yards. With bulk ammo, some are showing 4.5" or even larger group at 25 yards. Given that most gun owners (I include myself) cannot shoot a 4.5" group at 25 yards freehand under stress with any pistol/ammo combo, I consider a pistol that can achieve that accuracy from a bench, vise or Ransom rest to be "combat accurate". For any "social work" at any speed, a gun that does 4.5" groups at 25 yards is good enough.
However, that level of accuracy is considered piss poor by those who shoot a lot and/or reload. Such people make up a good proportion of the membership here, but they are often equally vague as to what "accurate" means. Are they expecting 1" groups at 25 yards, 2", 1.75"? Sometimes getting them to state a number is like getting blood from a stone. Apparently the rest of us are supposed to "know" what group size is "accurate". Sorry, but I'm probably more psychotic than psychic, so I need to hear a number up front. I have yet to find it in a definitive document from the National Bureau of Standards, and, oddly, neither do they define "combat accurate".
Well Armed
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It's a waste of money IMHO, but you know what they say about fools and money.
Depending on if your looking to add a semi fit or gunsmith fit barrel Both can be done at home . My m&p 2.0 4" with a stock barrel and recoil spring with a green dot optic for my trifocal vision is good for 2.5 to 3" at 25 yards fired from a bench . You can find shooters than say theu get better accuracy with loads I have not tried and some are worse .
For me 2.5" to 3" 5 shot group is good for a carry handgun for the HP loads my wife likes and some than I have . Now my wife has an early m&p gen 1 4.25 CORE 9mm with a apex gun smith fit barrel I fit to it . It was a real a real **** when new shooting patterns not groups . After the barrel change it could fire several 124gr and 147gr load FN jacketed ammo in several consistent 1.20 to 1.28" for 5 shots and me and a honest 1" for a grandson . Is that needed for carry - Hail No but it sure has surprised other shooters at a forestry range I use to visit when zeroing a new dot optic .
I'm a 40sw guy and 45 and have a old and newer m&ps in 40sw but they always seemed to shoot well .
Having read a slew of range reports on American Rifleman and other places, the same group size is often true with mass produced handguns at 25 yards. With bulk ammo, some are showing 4.5" or even larger group at 25 yards. Given that most gun owners (I include myself) cannot shoot a 4.5" group at 25 yards freehand under stress with any pistol/ammo combo, I consider a pistol that can achieve that accuracy from a bench, vise or Ransom rest to be "combat accurate". For any "social work" at any speed, a gun that does 4.5" groups at 25 yards is good enough.
However, that level of accuracy is considered piss poor by those who shoot a lot and/or reload. Such people make up a good proportion of the membership here, but they are often equally vague as to what "accurate" means. Are they expecting 1" groups at 25 yards, 2", 1.75"? Sometimes getting them to state a number is like getting blood from a stone. Apparently the rest of us are supposed to "know" what group size is "accurate". Sorry, but I'm probably more psychotic than psychic, so I need to hear a number up front. I have yet to find it in a definitive document from the National Bureau of Standards, and, oddly, neither do they define "combat accurate".
There's an issue with thinking that since the average shooter can't shoot groups matching the pistol's mechanical accuracy, it doesn't matter.
The trigger puller's shot dispersion doesn't merely overlap on top of the pistol's mechanical dispersion; they're added to each other. The shooter's wide shots have the mechanical dispersion expanding the group that they're capable of.
Now, of course, everything is a trade-off. Chasing small increases in mechanical accuracy may come at increased parts and/or labor costs, reduced adverse conditions reliability, or reduced durability if you're replacing a CHF barrel with a stainless barrel.
I won't disagree with that line of thinking but...
It is a given that many shooters aren't as accurate as the gun(s) they own, but that doesn't mean all shooters are in that group. Give me a gun that is as accurate as it can possibly be and that way I know I am the source of the problem when it won't shoot accurately or group properly. Otherwise I am guessing at two possible sources. We all know some guns are more accurate than others and that is a fact of life. So how does one differentiate which are spot on and which are not? It helps to have at least one extremely accurate firearm with which one can verify their own capabilities. If you can shoot one gun proficiently, chances are great an inaccuracy with another gun is the gun's fault (ruling out ammo issues first). Lacking that, give a gun to one who is know for their shooting abilities and let them determine how good or bad it is.
There is an old saying that a poor workman blames his tools, but that isn't always 100% true.
BEJU My wifes m&p core received an apex FST trigger kit with a curved trigger as soon as they were avalable . I preordered an apex gun smith fit barrel that I fit at home as soon as apex started shipping those out in 2016 I think . It has not been fired as much as a many guys well run thru in a year but it is very close to 14,000 rounds of home rolled missori coated swc 125gr and it has NEVER failed to function .
As bad as many of the early m&p barrels were a better barrel was needed badly . The CHR hammer forged barrel used in the m&p pistols not mean much to me if you own a lossy shooter and many early m&p 9mm were junk .
Oh . stainless steel barrels are hammer forged mostly out of 416-R. Wants to guess what process APEX uses now and at typical handgun velocity's barrel wear is not an issue .
If you lack the basic skills needed to fit a apex G&S barrel thats to be as its not hard to do, if a better barrel is wanted of course . It can be far easier than fitting a new sights !
As bad as many of the early m&p barrels were a better barrel was needed badly . The CHR hammer forged barrel used in the m&p pistols not mean much to me if you own a lossy shooter and many early m&p 9mm were junk .
Oh . stainless steel barrels are hammer forged mostly out of 416-R. Wants to guess what process APEX uses now and at typical handgun velocity's barrel wear is not an issue .
If you lack the basic skills needed to fit a apex G&S barrel thats to be as its not hard to do, if a better barrel is wanted of course . It can be far easier than fitting a new sights !
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I did get to shoot an M&P 1.0 with a fitted barrel (I don't remember if it was an Apex, Bar-Sto, or other) and PC sear, and it was very easy to shoot accurately. You'll get no disagreement from me about early M&Ps; I was not a fan.
Same guy who owned that 1.0 with the fitted barrel also shot out 2.0 5" factory barrel. He's got a training company and got the gun hot enough to melt the front sight's fiber optic a couple of times over the course of tens of thousands of rounds. So, not exactly normal usage.
I'm more skeptical about significant gains in a 2.0 compared to an early 1.0, but every gun is different. If you got a Friday afternoon gun that's on the looser end of specs, then it might be a big improvement.
I might have missed out on a Bar-Sto gun smith fit barrels but know today that they make "semi-fit " barrels .
I only have one 2.0 and its a 4" compact . I don't carry it but may one day ! Accuracy is good enough for carry needs . Now my old m&p 4.24 40 and new 5" ported pc are more than accurate enough for defensive needs .
I Think I could carry my wifes old M&P core with thumb safety added that's fully apexed if I feel the need , maybe ? ha
There is one video of a guy with a 4" compact that has a apex fit gunsmith barrel and it shows him standing and shooting a dueling tree at 50 yards with no misses .
Low point is he had horse in the video that had to run off to escape the muzzle blast . This guy is differently a better class of shooter at least .
TacticalSpeed
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I run a threaded Apex in my 9mm 2.0. I can shoot sub MOA with it, but I could with factory non-threaded barrel too lol. I got it because I run suppressed.
The potential liability issue is that if that the barrel (I assume that "sparrow" is a talk to text transcription failure) isn't fit properly, it can cause functioning issues.
