44-40 ammunition

Hello guys and gals,

Any one have any expierence shooting 44-40? I am going to start shooting this round? I know it is a historic round and was used from the 1870s until the 1900's. I also know that it was one of the most popular rounds in the 1800s.. in your expierence is is just as good as the 44 special round?? is it still in a class of its own when it comes to stopping a human target??

The reason I ask is I am personally going to bring the round back into law enforcement. I am going to carry a S&W 544 as my new duty gun...just to have something different than everyone else.

People are no tougher than they were 130 years ago. The 44/40 will hold its own with the 44 Special providing the weight and velocity is the same. Just don't use the "cowboy" loads. They are pretty weak. Be sure to use something that will pump 200+ grains of lead at 800+ fps and it should work.

I show two loads for the 44/40 Winchester from the Lyman 45th addition reloading handbook.

The test firearm used was a Colt SAA with a 7.5" barrel.

200gr Jacketed bullet;
starting load, 8gr Unique, 825fps.

Max load 11.1gr of Unique, 1125fps.

Since the 44/40 is a bottlenecked case, you might have problems with setback with higher loads locking up your revolver.

NE450No2 said:

Since the 44/40 is a bottlenecked case, you might have problems with setback with higher loads locking up your revolver.

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The brass may have to be canellured (I never can spell it correctly) below the bullet to prevent that, which is no problem with the correct tool. Also, a very heavy crimp is highly suggested. Of course, factory ammunition has both of these traits, but little, if any of factory ammunition is better than "cowboy loads." Not to say that a .44-40 at cowboy velocities is still a round capable of putting down any two-legged creature, but that will still leave you will nearly every load being flat or round nosed lead. I believe that Winchester quit making the Silvertip load for it, but still lists the 200gr. JSP- the only jacketed factory load left that I can find from the "big" ammunition companies.

I don't think using the grand old 44/40 , aka .44 WCF as a duty weapon is a logical choice. I doubt many police chiefs would allow it as a primary weapon today. First , there's not much in the way of suitable ammo. There's a 200gr JSP and various flat point cast bullet 'cowboy' loads. Plus , most factory ammo is held down due to the large number of black powder era guns still in use. The S&W 544 , though a good N-frame gun , is not up to hot handloads because the case shape and size make for some thin cylinder walls. Brass is also rather weak. You'd have to buy/carry your own ammo , which is sometimes hard to find and the 200gr JSP is very expensive , and if ya run out in a social engagement , other officers ammo won't help.

OTOH , A like-chambered lever action carbine is always a cood companion to a sixgun. And there's several good copies of the Win 92 out there.


The main reason the .44 Special became more popular is that it was usually more accurate out of later sixguns like the S&W Triple Lock. Bore and cylinder throat size vary widely in 44-40 guns.

While I have quite satisfactoryly used 44-40 in both revolver and lever guns for a couple of decades, I only use my handloads and a few commercial loads from select custom loaders, I would be leary of using it as duty weapon for police work where others would most likely not be carrying 44-40s. I have never considered recent factory ammo to fairly represent original 44-40 ballistics.

For home defense or use as a lone individual, I would be quite happy with a nice double action 44-40 and a light, M92 carbine. At least they have advantage that I have used such guns for decades and shoot them instinctively.

I know nothing of the S&W revolver you mention, especially about factory specs for chambers, cylinder throats, and bores. However, 44-40s have been made with a wide range of specs for chamber necks and cylinder throats, as well as bore diameters. In addition, chamber dimensions can range from really sloppy to really tight. It can quickly get to be a custom handloading operation, possibly for each individual gun.

Happily, both my 44-40s take 0,429 bullets and both are strong actioned guns. Easy to get 900-1000 fps for 200 grain bullets with safe (SAAMI) pressures from my Ruger Vaquero with 5,5 inch barrel and 1200-1300 fps from 20 inch barreled rifle. That is, original BP velocities from these guns, as verified with BP loads using Swiss FFg or 777FFg and 200 grain bullets cast from Lyman 427098 moulds, in modern, solid-head cases.

For me, 44-40 is one of easiest cartridges to load, right up there with 30-30, 38Spl, 7X57 etc. and much easier than 45 Colt. Some folks get all confused about actual strength of modern, solid-head 44-40 brass and strength of 44-40 chambered revolver cylinders. Any revolver cylinder of same external dimensions and routinely chambered for 45 Colt will have essentially same wall thickness if chambered for 44-40 -- check cartridge dimensions.

Some folks call it a "bottlenecked" cartridge, and it sorta is when loaded with 0,427 bullets. Loaded with 0.429-0.430 bullets it is much closer to simply being a tapered, slightly stepped cartridge. Feeds really nicely in rifles like M92, with their sloping cartridge ramps. Never had any problem with tubular magazines pushing bullets back into cases, but some folks have, perhaps because of not-quite-right hand loading parameters.

Niklas

Luck for me my agency allows me to carry anything I want because I am a detective. I currently carry a 3" model 625 I am shooting Speer GDHP 230gr. 45acp traveling at 890fps and muzzel energy of 404ftlbs

My research has shown 44-40 winchester soft point to put out 1100fps and 645ftlbs of energy so how is that not a good round????

Those ballistics read like those for modern, downloaded 44-40 loads in rifle. I have no doubt those ballistics can be obtained with handloads in revolvers that can handle chamber pressures somewhat greater than SAAMI for 44-40.

FYI, Lyman 47 lists some 44-40 loads up to 20.000 psi with 200 grain Speer 0,429 jacketed bullets. These closely approximate the true HV loads once produced by factories for use ONLY in strong 44-40 rifles, like Winchester M92, Marlin M94, Winchester Low Wall, etc. In a modern revolver (NOT Colt SAAs, old S&W, etc.) that can handle this pressure, you should expect well over 1100 fps and plenty of muzzle blast and recoil -- I know, I tried some in my Ruger Vaquero.

Niklas

I bought a S&W 544 when it was introduced in the mid 1980's. The 44-40 round intrigued me. I picked up a 1000 new Remington cases. The first thing I noticed about the cases was there wasn't much of a bottleneck compared to factory loaded ammo. I loaded about a 100 rounds and when I put them in the gun, the cylinder wouldn't turn properly. I thought there was something wrong with the gun. Turned out that the RCBS dies I was using would not fully form the bottleneck on the new cases. I could fire them one at a time and that would fire-form the cases. Then they could be loaded with the proper bottleneck. Perhaps I got a bad batch of Remington cases.

I too had some problems with bad batches of Remington 44-40 cases in late 1980s, early 1990s. Most common problem was diverse lengths, requiring initial trimming to get consistant case lenghts for crimping. Some even split after very few loadings, rather than after the more common 10 or so loadings. I also had some problems early on with Starline 44-40 brass, again, mostly with case lengths, but not with premature splitting. In recent decade plus, I have very few, if any, deviant cases from either Remington or Starline. It has now been 7-8 years since I bought new 44-40 brass.

New Starline and Remington cases arrived with simple straight taper and needed full-length resizing to fit into chambers.

I never had initial resizing problems with my RCBS 44-40 dies. I simply gave each case maximum resizing and that worked fine for even my Ruger with minimum chamber dimensions. I still resize that way because nothing else gives me brass that will chamber in my Ruger.

Niklas

So let me get this straight. In this day and age where law enforcement handgun technology is at it's hightest peak ever, with plastics, composites, alloys, high capacity magazines and etc, etc, you plan on choosing a firearm that was designed over 100 years ago and a model that is chambered for a cartridge that is even older?

It really makes me wonder if we aren't related. Your 544 loaded with Winchester 200gr. SP ammo would be just as formidable today as it ever was. And if you handload and are allowed to carry them, you can do even better with proper bullets and increased velocity. (Stay away from the Cowboy Action ammo unless you are plinking with it.) Many people choose to arbitrairily label the "Old West" cartridges as obsolete without even looking at their ballistic similarity to our latest and greatest wonder cartridges, not to mention the surprisingly lower pressure limits with which they do it.

The market, and marketeers, have gotten so magnum crazy they fail to realize that these cartridges are perfect for their intended useage. Yes, you can load a .44 magnum down to match it, but if the only task you ever give it is to save your bacon from the scum of society, that was why it was made and it served that purpose well. Plus you don't have to worry about someone handing you some magnum ammo to try out that will only embarass you in front of your peers.

I have heard that the 544s had barrels made for .429 bullets while the chamber throats were made for .427 bullets, which could make accuracy a little challenging. I have one myself but have never checked it's specs. or its' accuracy potential.

Call me old fashioned call me crazy I dont care. I like carrying stuff that no one else does. I was going to carry a 45 LC but I got this gun at a great price so I am going to carry it... I know the 45lc is a great round. I did not know until I started researching that the 44-40 was comperable to the 45lc in ballistics back in the day....I plan on using the soft point ammunition.

The 44-40 softpoint ammo is a poor choice considering the much better options available. I suspect a 200gr soft point at 1100fps will pass clear through a human target without expanding and retain enough velocity to kill or injure someone else downrange that doesn't have it coming. It's also more dangerous for you because the suspect may not be incapicitated and remain in the fight longer.

No disrepect, but why go from a pretty much state of the art 45ACP 230 Gold Dot hp to an antiquated round that is less effective and more dangerous to bystanders just to be different?

I can't believe an agency would allow this extreme latitude with regards to duty weapons and ammunition in 2010, given the high liability concerns/realities inolved in today's world.

I carried a 4 inch 629 with 44 Specials back in the day. R-E-V-O-L-V-E-R day. I stopped when my agency transitioned to semi autos in 1990 and I have never looked back. The semi auto, with modern LE ammo is a much better tool for what we do. Again, no disrepect, but I am looking for performance not panache.

Reloading 44-40

Huge pain in the butt to reload. Bottle neck case, must be lubed before resizing, erratic case length growth so consistent crimp is challenging, paper thin case neck that bulges, buckles or collapses at the worst possible moment.

Lubed bottle neck cases must be cleaned, tumbled, or polished before they are fired because of possible set-back in the cylinder. OP must really like a challenge.

I am not looking forward to reloading my third batch of brass.

This and companion threads about modern-made S&W DA revolvers chambered in 44-40 got my interest up enough to go look on GunBroker and, surprise (to me) there were some for sale.

Then I got to wondering if S&W had been smarter than Ruger and matched cylinder and barrel specs. Jellybean mentioning 0,429 bores and perhaps 0,427 cylinder throats is disturbing, although better than Ruger's initial offering with 0,429 bores and 0,425 cylinder throats. I bought one of those Rugers used and sent it to Ruger for installation of new cylinder with chambers suited to ammo with 0,429 bullets. They got it almost right and I finished the job of making it right. It is now a much better grouping revolver than its companion in 45 Colt ever was -- actually, it is my favorate SA revolver.

I have no idea how those factory 200 grain soft points will expand on humans. I do know that 200 grain lead bullets, even made of nearly pure lead, at muzzle velocity of 1200 fps, will zip right through a deer's chest cavity at up to about 100 yards on broadside hit.

Question: Do any of makers of geewhizz personal defence bullets make a 0,429 200 grainer that expands at impact velocities of 800 fps? I shot a few 10s of Speer 200 grain, 0,429 jacketed HPs at fence posts, small trees, etc. and they all penetrated 3-4 inches of wood nicely at about 900 fps -- no idea how much they expanded. FYI, those Remington and Winchester 44-40 soft points are 0,425-0,426, as one would expect -- OK since they are jacketed. Anyone know for sure how well they expand?

BTW, anyone that cannot successfully load 44-40 ammo, and with ease, still has some room to improve loading skills.

Interesting thread!! Never thought i might need a modern S&W DA revolver in 44-40.

Niklas

I would imagine that the 544 would indeed make a fine duty handgun. The 44 WCF cartridge is plenty of a manstopper, as good as any 45ACP round on the market or any other comparable round. A LSWC bullet at 900 FPS or so properly placed is going to be effective, whether the cartridge case that delivers it was invented in 1873 or 1904 with the ACP round.
Expansion isn't guaranteed in a human target with any of those rounds. The person hit by it won't know the difference anyway.

I don't buy the liability issues. We are going to be scrutinized no matter what we shoot someone with. All of us, with or without a badge are. If you have a badge, qualify with your handgun, document your use of force/deadly force training, and clearly articulate your need to use deadly force, then that is all you can do. If a round from a 9, 40, 45 or 44-40 hits an unintended target, then it is on us anyway. What difference does it make the caliber or platform that delivered it???
In the not so distant past LE agencies issued Model 25's in 45 Colt, a cartridge every bit as old as the 44, and quite frankly they used it to quite good effect.
The firearms that deliver those rounds are heavy, hard to hide, and not everyone shoots them well, but their is NO GOOD REASON not to carry it.

The only problem with the .44-40 is the poor choice of factory ammo. With handloading it can be just as effective, and safe, as any other handgun ammo on the market. The Winchester 200 gr. soft point would be just like shooting a Gold Dot that didn't expand.

The velocity quoted above is from a rifle by the way, so a revolver would deliver a little less. But anyone who depends on wether or not their bullet expands to save their butt, or to keep from injuring a bystander, is chasing unicorns. It is much better to spend the extra money used on the latest and greatest, which usually means most expensive, ammunition on practice ammo, and get to know your weapon a little better.

I've never thought of loading bottleneck pistol cartridges as being a chore. I load because I like to and probably like to load just as much as I like to shoot. While they may be a little more challenging than straight walled pistol cartridges with carbide dies, I find them much more enjoyable and educating. I guess it all depends on why one handloads in the first place.

panamajack310 said:

Call me old fashioned call me crazy I dont care. I like carrying stuff that no one else does. I was going to carry a 45 LC but I got this gun at a great price so I am going to carry it... I know the 45lc is a great round. I did not know until I started researching that the 44-40 was comperable to the 45lc in ballistics back in the day....I plan on using the soft point ammunition.

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you might be both old fashioned AND crazy, but there ain't a thing wrong with patrollin' while carryin' a 44-40

Anything can, and has, failed to stop and it is about shot placement and how bad the BG wants to stay in the fight. This includes the 45ACP and 357mag 125 jhp (I'm aware of each failing to stop with decent placement locally). Perfect placement cannot be assured under the stresses and dynamics of a gunfight (lighting, movement by you & BG, etc.) so six may go pretty fast and one can run out of ammo before running out of gunfight.

Our G-22s have performed very well in numerous OISs, and I carry mine with complete confidence (but no illusion of it being a death ray). By all means, carry what you like and have confidence in. I prefer something with a little higher capacity for the above reasons, as well as our BGs often like to run in packs.

I hope you enjoy your 44-40 and that it serves you well. Stay safe.