Can you help ID this model 13-3 PPC

[cschell]

Hello to all. A couple of things caught my eye recently in my never-ending wandering in search of interesting pieces. I ran across this blast from the not-so-distant past and am debating whether to pick it up and add it to my get to it one day project list. It is a Model 13-3 turned into a PPC revolver. It is professionally smithed and has the name "W.W. Buttler Feb. 88" stamped on the side plate. The cylinder charging holes are numbered and beveled. The ejector does not lock from the front, but the crane/yoke has a ball detent on top and in the front. The barrel is stamped "m Baker" on the right side along with Indep. Mo. and .357 MAG. The left side of the barrel is stamped "Champion". I do not see any identification on the sight bar.
Thus far my internet search has given me no information. I was wondering if anyone might know of the Gunsmith responsible for the work? The double action pull is fantastic with no push-off.
I appreciate the craftsmanship involved with creating such a cool piece and am drawn to it. My hesitation is centered on the condition of the bluing and barrel bore. The bore seems to retain a hint of rifling. For those familiar with PPC guns from the day the question is was the rifling pronounced or reduced on competition barrels?
I haven't added the gun to the collection yet, but I think the price it was offered to me for ($600) was fair and am wondering what those in the know think would be a reasonable price to pay for a neglected work of art? I would appreciate the input and any information on the piece and its creator.
I originally posted this on the 1980 and newer forum but I think this forum is more appropriate and I apologize to those who responded to that post, and I appreciated your comments. Consensus is that the sight rib is the Wichita Rib from Power Custom. Because of the other name on the barrel, I don't know that it would have been one of his builds.

 

[Sevens]

Over the past few years I have been trying to build/keep a small database of custom PPC builders from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's... mostly when I come across them in old gun magazines from those years. I have not heard of Buttler or M Baker either for that matter, but I cannot say this comes as a shock to me because -MANY- builders came and went from those days.

I have a couple thoughts and suggestions as someone who was too young to compete with all the cops back in the late 80's at my local Sportsman's Club, but now as a middle aged guy recapturing his youth by buying and shooting old PPC rigs!

First is... if you have never owned a PPC revolver, you have to know going in that these guns may not reliably detonate factory ammo or your own handloads if you are not using a very sensitive primer. They are set up this way on purpose, shooters in the day were all using the Federal 100 SP primer, long known as the easiest to detonate.

There is a work around for this -- you can shim the mainspring and force the hammer to hit harder. This will work all of the time but you give up an awful lot in the trigger pull when you elect to do it. For anyone who has never handled a custom PPC revolver, the double action trigger stroke is something you may have never experience EVER and it's nothing like a normal DA trigger pull. You will be far beyond impressed, but that light DA stroke comes at the cost of energy for the smacking of the primer.

Bottom line is that you might need ammo with the Federal 100 to take full advantage of this revolver... or you will have to (slightly) modify it.

Next tip -- Ron Power was one of arguably two guys at the very peak of the top of the mountain of legendary PPC builders (the other being Bill Davis) and Power would often do builds on .357 Magnum guns while most did their builds on .38 Special K-frames. However, both of these builders warned specifically that their PPC builds were meant for the target .38 Wadcutter load and high pressure .357 Magnum was out of the scope of the design and was not to be used. I believe it was Power specifically that warned the torque on his custom barrels could potentially damage the build. So even though this is a Model 13, it is meant for lead .38 Wadcutters and not any barn-burning .357 Magnum ammo.

Lastly, and surely just my opinion, but I think I would argue this price a bit. The market for old used PPC revolvers is soft mostly because it is a sparse competition these days, the ammo/primer issue is real and these are obviously quite altered, non-original guns with custom work that does not hold value. In the case of what you show, it is also not a huge/known name and the outside condition is, well, kind of hammered. Much loved and well used.

I would love to own it -- but I would pass at $600.

 

[cschell]

Thank you for the response. I was able to get a lead on W.W. Buttler. His name is Warren W. Buttler, and he was a retired Federal Agent and Instructor. He authored two books on handgun shooting: "The Art and Science of Basic Handgun Accuracy" from 1991 and "The Armed Option: Zen in the Art of Combat Pistolcraft" from 1993. That's the good news.
The bad news. The owner of the gun, who had never shot the gun and believes the owner before him never shot the gun, allowed me to give the gun a quick cleaning and take it to the range. Well, how is that bad? I used PPU LSWC 158gr. and was getting the occasional keyhole. It wasn't every round, nor every cylinder. I shot 50 rounds and got about 6 keyholes. I wasn't able to determine if was a single cylinder chamber. The cylinders are numbered, but when I would try and get the chamber of the last keyhole reloaded and try again there was not a repeat keyhole. From my less than expert opinion it seems that the rifling in the barrel is well worn.
I ran out of time and patience as the A/C at the indoor range was not working and the lighting in the stall was closer to dusk than daylight. The small rubber grip on the round butt model 13-3 frame made it impossible for me to obtain a decent hold. Plus, I ran out of ammo. I am scheduled for hand surgery next week. The owner of the gun said he will hold it for me until I return to try again with my weak hand with a larger rubber K-frame round butt grip that I have in my collection.

 

[Sevens]

Interesting results, I would never expect that. Given that these guns were fed lead bullets almost entirely across the board, it would take a crazy volume of them to shoot out a barrel and a custom, purpose built barrel at that.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Ron Power sold the barrels, underlugs, etc. for other gunsmiths to build with. I know that the rib is a Wichita Arms because I have 3 of them, and I worked there for a while.

I would be checking for no or too small of a forcing cone, a leaded bore, or worn out rifling. It takes in the neighborhood of 100,000 rounds to wear out a wadcutter barrel. Also, a bore constriction where the barrel screws into the frame will cause keyholing. The only way to check that is with a set of plug gages.

 

[cschell]

Thank you for your insight and advice. Hopefully after a couple of weeks after my right-hand surgery on Monday my strong hand will have healed up enough to allow me to head to the range and try again shooting with my weak hand.
I think the gun is cool with its connection to firearms author and instructor Warren W Buttler. If I had to come up with a theory on the "m Baker", "Champion" and "Feb. 88" it would be that m Baker was the Gunsmith, and he called his creation "Champion" and it was given/sold to W.W. Buttler in Feb. 88, or the revolver was awarded to the m Baker match Champion in February of 1988 which was probably won by W.W. Buttler.

 

[CALREB]

Like #5, Protocall Design and Sevens said above it's hard to put that kind of wear and other damage to a ppc barrel shooting wadcutters. The fact its a 13 not a standard 38 might give you a clue about its use. That gun is just too rough. If it was 300, and you already had a barrel maybe, if that is all that is wrong. I still wouldn't buy it. Just a month or so ago I got a brand-new Wichita rib and a new barrel online for about 60.00. I would put a few hundred more together and look for a nicer gun.


On the other hand the history is kind of interesting. Buttler lived in Mo. The gun was no doubt built in Independence Mo., by M Baker. Ron Powers stuff was all the rage; I always preferred Davis guns. I don't know what he shot or remember his name, but I will look through my stuff. I competed in PPC in Mo. and Iowa and the Bianchi Cups in the early 80s. So maybe his name is in some results. Cool that you can trace the gun to a specific interesting person.

Funny, one of the first "shooting" type books an old military shooter gave me when I first started competing was Zen in the Art of Archery. Still have it and have bought numerous copies to give to new shooters.

 

[J56]

Bill Davis was mostly "hot air"
His guns were cosmeticly attractive but still require match tuning.
Bob Jones of Jackson, MS was the real deal. He "built" Phil Hemphill's winning revolvers.
Ron Powers got out of PPC selling his gunsmith business to Allen Tanaka. Allen built/modified sound guns, but any highmaster shooter would still consider the guns a "kit" requiring tuning.

Bob Jones built me a SA M1911, that still required a lot of tuning to shoot a competitive score.
I finally bailed on the custom aftermarket and went S&W Performance Center. Paul Campbell built my PPC-9 LIMITED 5" and I have the ransom rest test target with a 0.478" 5-shot group.

My PC HB M14 gathered me a short lived national record in the 4" Service Revolver w/480-45x only to be bested by Phill Hemphill w46x's. It was rebarreled by John Sifrett at the PC. I got to know all the gunsmiths at the PC.

My self tuned M686-2 2.5" set me with a still standing NR of 480/43x. It the single best trigger/lock up and timing of any S&W I've ever seen. I competed with it winning the service gun aggregate including the 4"service. Rev. Match and having used my Model 14 6"HB to win the Dist. Service at h with a 598-45x.

John Sifret with the PC replaced the original defective cylinder on the 1996 produced Mod-14 6" with a fitted cylinder. It's still the most accurate revolver I own or ever will. With a 158gr Precision Delta SWC over 3.6gr of #231 will shoot a ragged hole at 25yds and 1.5" 6-shots at 50yds from a ransom rest.

My 1500 match gun has a David Sams (of Bullseye renown) fitted Barnett pre- milled barrel. I've since had to "refresh" it by setting back the barrel to correct a split forcing con and recut with an 11deg forcing cone with a minimum depth. 0.003" b/c gap. And end-shake elimination by peening and shims…

The point being that each PPC revolver is broadly a "build by committee and community... "

if it's key holing I suggest a badly worn cylinder gas ring, excessive endshake, a badly worn/or cut forcing cone, or a buldged barrel from "shooting out" a squib…. BTDT! Shot a 1493-110x in 1998 NPSC taking 3rd pl (won HM class) after shooting out a squib at the 7yd line.

Before I'd pay hard cash I'd have someone VERY knowledgeable of S&W K-frames evaluate the gun.

My Mod 10-6 I won in the 1994 NPSC taking the Master Class with a Travis Strahan built Mod10-5. It's a shot out rag!

I'd offer $350 for OP's gun in question.
and expect to lose money on it… but they are delightful range toys!
My 10-6 will still shoot the X-ring with 2.7-3.0 Bullseye or 3.1gr #231. I'll never be able to shoot competition again due to medical issues and prohibited medications ( beta blockers, narcotic painkillers, ect…).

Don't get me started on my perf Ctr PPC -9 Limited's !