What types of bullets were used in .357 loads "back in the day"?

AJMBLAZER

AJMBLAZER

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Looking to satisfy some curiousity here.

I know .357 is a product of the 30's but have read that functioning hollowpoints were only around starting in the 80's mainly. I know SuperVel was around from the 60's.

What bullets were used in the "old days"? Round nosed lead? SWC's? Those old conical metal piercing bullets? Just curious what the knowledgeable lawman or gun guy would have put in his .357 long before I was born.
 
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I think they were originally loaded with a 158gr LSWC. I don't recall ever seeing it loaded with a round nose like the 38 spl was.
 
That is correct. The early Remington ammunition catalogs list both lead and metal-capped (metal point) 158 grain bullets @1510 ft/sec. I believe metal-capped bullets had just the nose covered. The bearing surface on the bore was lead. Western also listed a 158 grain metal piercing bullet and a 158 grain Luballoy Coated bullet, which was a FMJ.
 
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dsink said:
I think they were originally loaded with a 158gr LSWC. I don't recall ever seeing it loaded with a round nose like the 38 spl was.
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I agree, I'm not saying a 158 gr. round nose was never made for the .357 but I've never seen one.

For general use today a hard cast 158-180 gr. is a pretty good load for the .357, especially for "woods carry".
 
The earlier .357 lead bullet cartridges I have seen all had the SWC bullet shape. I have not seen one with a round nose, but that does not mean that they weren't made. The bullets were deeply seated, with the "shelf" of the SWC bullet seated flush with the case mouth. The Remington catalog listing simply says "lead" for the bullet.
 
AJMBLAZER said:
Looking to satisfy some curiousity here.

I know .357 is a product of the 30's but have read that functioning hollowpoints were only around starting in the 80's mainly. I know SuperVel was around from the 60's.

What bullets were used in the "old days"? Round nosed lead? SWC's? Those old conical metal piercing bullets? Just curious what the knowledgeable lawman or gun guy would have put in his .357 long before I was born.
Click to expand...

I think the originals were semi-wadcutter. Metal piercing were more like a pointed tip round.
 
I'm not sure what bullets preceded the 125 grain JHP for defensive purposes, but it was probably the 158 grain previously described.

However, the famous "man stopper" is the 125 grain JHP.

Back in the 1960's, big bore fans asserted that .45 ACP 230 grain ball ammo would achieve 95% one shot stops. Subsequent research has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 60-64% one shot stops and several smaller calibers using expanding bullets are more effective stoppers. The most effective of all self-defense handgun cartridges is the medium bore .357 Magnum with a 125 grain JHP bullet, which provides 93-97% stops. Those numbers are supported by a huge data base and several different researchers, working independently, have discovered essentially the same thing.

From an interesting read: Handgun Stopping Power

Just ignore that bit about the 45 ball ammo being less than a 100% fight stopper. Blasphemy I say!! ;)
 
Remington produced a 158gr JSP load which, for quite a while, was the only one of its kind. Winch's lead SWC had a much sharper shoulder than that of Rem. The Winch load was coated with a gold-colored copper wash, I believe it was called. Rem also produced a 158gr jacketed metal piercing load, but a poster on another thread said claims of metal piercing were too optimistic.

It took Norma to break the mold of the above loads by introducing their 158gr Magnum load; can't recall if JHP or JSP. Norma showed initiative by producing interesting .38 loads and the first .45ACP JHP.
 
AJMBLAZER said:
Did they have any issues with pushing lead ammo that fast?
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There are different kinds of lead, and lube.

The major factories, especially back then, were notorius for using whatever "wrong" combination of lead and lube - and they often leaded the barrels pretty bad. So bad, that even today, some folks still believe lead bullets are bad and mess up your barrel.

Well, I don't know that the major factories have stopped doing that.

But there are some smaller companies that do it right. And some individuals as well.

I'm still learning, but the folks who know what they are doing, don't have problems with leading their barrels.
 
AJMBLAZER said:
Just curious what the knowledgeable lawman or gun guy would have put in his .357 long before I was born.
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Handloads were popular in some places, and apparently worked well.

There are books, articles, and forums discussing how it was done and how to do it now. Look for articles by the gun writers of the 1950's through the 1970's.
 
In the early 70's I vaguely recall what was referred to as a SJHP. That was what most wheel gunners carried on duty. I do recall that we qualified with .38 Special wadcutter and practiced mostly with the SWC ending with a cylinder or two of our .357 carry round. Department furnished the practice stuff and the officer had to buy his own duty loads.

hardcase60
 
The copper washed Winchester loads were called "Luballoy" and were pretty much a copy of their .22 lr high speed loads. Alas, the name was wishful thinking. 6 rounds and you couldn't see your rifling.

The metal piercing rounds were as described earlier, pointed metal cap on a lead bullet.

The Remington 158 SPs were loaded hot. I expect they were intended more as a hunting rounds than self defense.

Super Vel did indeed start the light bullet/high speed era in the mid-late 1960s. A friend got some of the first 125 gr JHP component bullets out (1970-71) and an ink-still-wet load data sheet (Hercules, now Alliant). They did expand, but very shortly Hercules came out with revised (downward, way downward) load data. Not really an issue, I'd looked at the data and decided that sticking the same powder charge I used in a .44 Magnum in a .357 case was not going to happen:)

BTW, lead hollowpoints were around even in the 1930s. There were even some interesting molds where you could cast your hollowpoint nose out of soft lead. This was then inserted into another mold that cast the bore riding body of the bullet out of much harder alloy while retaining the soft lead nose. But, you didn't see any of these from factories.
 
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Exactly what "Lubaloy" means is open to interpretation. Western got a patent in the early 1920s for a copper-zinc-tin alloy suitable for bullet jackets. Its main advantage was that it did not cause metal fouling of bores when bullets were fired at high velocity. Prior to that, jackets were made of cupro-nickel, and sometimes caused metal fouling in bores. Usually, Lubaloy bullet jackets were also given a copper wash for a better appearance. However, lead bullets which were given a copper wash were also called Lubaloy - so I guess the term was applied to any non-fouling bullets.

I have a 1930s era box of Western .38 Special ammunition, labeled as Lubaloy. Those bullets are definitely FMJ, not copper washed unjacketed lead.

Western's metal piercing bullets were of the capped type, using a heavy metal conical cap over a lead core. The bore riding surface was lead. It was the heavy metal (Lubaloy??) conical cap combined with the higher .357 velocity which enhanced its metal-penetrating performance. Remington's metal piercing bullets were different, as they were made from a hard zinc alloy.

Were copper-washed lead bullets used in loading .357 ammunition? I frankly don't know.
 
Having been given lots of old '60's era .357 mag ammo, mostly R-P, do recall the short, stubby ogive and shoulder seated below case mouth. The 158 gr. LSWC was about it except for the 'metal piercing' option for a long time.
A quick thumbnail check on the SWC's would tell you they were soft, almost surely swaged.
And yes, a few cylinders-full of them would turn your barrel into a smoothbore with the lead left behind. You were in for a long and aggravating cleaning session.
One thing from the old days that I don't miss.
 
Old Corp said:
...And yes, a few cylinders-full of them would turn your barrel into a smoothbore with the lead left behind. You were in for a long and aggravating cleaning session.
One thing from the old days that I don't miss.
Click to expand...


You know you're old when you here the word "Lewis" and the first thing coming to mind is Lewis Lead Remover. I learned that bronze wool was faster yet for getting lead out. Nonetheless, before then I spent a week, yes a WEEK, cleaning lead out of a barrel and off a cylinder face once. Several hours every night. The face of the cylinder looked like the skin of an orange!! Simply awful.
 
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