JUST TESTED THE "NEW" REMINGTON HTP FBI LOAD VS THE OLD ONE

Of course this is just my personal opinion, but I have no use for .357 Mag's from a 2" tube. I see too many disadvantages and zero benefits. IMHO the BB 158 Gr. HEAVY +P is the best and stiffest load I care to carry in a Chief's Spl. and there is NOTHING at all wrong with the Speer 135 Gr. Gold Dot either. I just prefer 158 grain bullets however if someone does not want the recoil from the BB Heavy, then the Speer GD makes perfect sense. The longer the Big 3 ammo Co's produce the "FBI LOAD" the more watered down they seem to make it.

By the way, from my testings the Winchester version is actually wimpier than Remington's and federal's is between the two.
 
Interesting here. I picked up two boxes of Rem 40sw HTPs, one 180 and the other 155.

I wonder these are going to be watered down as well.
 
I do not own any .40's so I am unable to test them or you. I do think the S&W .40 is a great defense round and if I were an Auto carrying guy I would consider getting one. Most of my shootin' Bud's are old school like me and off hand I can't think of any friends who own 40's either.
 
Fun numbers for anyone who's interested. :D

Using Chief's chrono data (and omitting the "mulligan" from the Remington test), I came up with the following numbers:

Remington HTP LHP +P
Avg. Velocity = 791.2 FPS
Std. Deviation = 8.05978 FPS

Buffalo Bore +P LSWCHP
Avg. Velocity = 981.8 FPS
Std. Deviation = 21.31103 FPS

Standard deviation is simply the amount of deviation from the "mean" (or average) velocity for each respective 5-shot sample. Take it as you will.

The next figure is a 10 shot average fired from an M642 Airweight Centennial (data is from the late Stephen A. Camp's website):

Remington Express LHP +P
Avg. Velocity = ~800 FPS

The 10-shot average may not be a fair comparison, but in light of these numbers I'm not seeing a whole lot of differences between the old Express load and the new HTP one.

If you really want me to show you how I did the math, just ask. :p

Now that I'm looking again at the chrono data for the 6" M27, I suspect that Remington may very well be using a faster burning powder in the HTP load (that, and/or the Express cartridges used might've been from the batches that were loaded to greater OAL, for whatever that's worth).
 
Much obliged, Boge. The Remington numbers kind of confirm my hunch about faster burning powders being used in the HTP.

(Off topic, but wasn't the LSWC +P the NYPD load back when they carried revolvers?)
 
attn CoMF

Been out of NYC for 4 years now. I know the 158gr LSWC +P load was issued at the PD range in the mid 90s. I had some R-P boxes of it. It replaced the standard velocity 158gr SWC (intro'd in the early 70s) which was considered by the powers-that-be an improvement over the LRN 158gr.

Good to have you back, CoMF, your posts have been sorely missed.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
Kaaskop:

I don't know if I add a whole lot to the discussion, but thanks all the same. :)

I've been busy with work and family, so I admittedly haven't been frequenting here as much.
 
Thanks for all the information Chief. I know how much effort that goes into collecting it...

Wow, after reading this thread I'm very glad I have 3 or 4 boxes of R38S12 ammo plus a half box I'm currently using. I'm not sure if it's 3 or 4 boxes, too lazy to go in the basement and dig it out! lol

I also have 3 boxes of Federal and 2 boxes of Winchester FBI Load. The Federal is in a white box (I think contract overrun) and the Winchester ammo is one old (late 70's) and one newer.

As soon as the weather breaks I'm going to try to find a new box or the Rem stuff and test the old and new Rem. and Win. along with the Fed. stuff and report the results of the 5 loads.
 
attn ArchAngelCD

FWIW, if I were you, I'd hang on to that W-W box from the late 70s. If it's yellow in color, and the cases are cannelured, those rounds are the original LHP loads that clock 1010fps in 4". The real deal, Neal, not the diluted stuff of recent times... Lovely!

One never knows, do one?
 
kaaskop49 said:
FWIW, if I were you, I'd hang on to that W-W box from the late 70s. If it's yellow in color, and the cases are cannelured, those rounds are the original LHP loads that clock 1010fps in 4". The real deal, Neal, not the diluted stuff of recent times... Lovely!

One never knows, do one?
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I have and I know it already. (but thank you for the info) I have been holding on to that stuff for a good long time. Like I said, I know it's the real deal but unless I prove it what good? I just want to document how really anemic ammo is these days. We are being cheated of the full potential of our chosen SD round. It's no wonder so many younger shooters have no respect for the .38 Special. The .38 Special ammo available today isn't very special at all... (pun intended)
 
As an aside, I purchased a few boxes of Atomic Ammunitions +P .38 Special reversed hollow body wadcutters. Initially, I was disappointed, they did not fit flush in my K-frames. However, they fit fine in my 686 SSR.

All I can say is Lord have mercy. Stout, but not too much. Accurate 15 yards in.
 
The Big Three (Rem, Win, Fed) have changed their spec's so many times throughout the production of their "FBI Load" that it is very important to test the batch of bullets you buy.

I reported about a year or so ago that I sent back 4 boxes of Winchester's version - FBI Load because I actually thought is was standard velocity ammunition loaded in +P marked cases. The letter and refund check I received from Winchester confirmed my belief's and although they were apologetic that would not have helped someone who thought he was carrying +P ammo. When I tested them in my 2" Chief's Special and saw the dismal velocity (high 600's to low 700's) I knew something was wrong.

Buffalo Bore's HEAVY +P's and Speer's +P Short Barrel 135 Gr. Gold Dots are not only the best performing .38 Special SD loads I've tested so far, but they are and have always been extremely consistent from lot to lot. If you feel that the BB +P is a bit too stiff, look at their NON+P rated LSWCHP which is actually hotter than the Big 3's FBI +P Loads!!!

IMHO the BEST MAJOR BRAND (stuff readily available in stores) of Factory produced ammo is Speer/CCI. I am NOT putting Buffalo Bore in the same category because they are a "Boutique" type ammo Company - although they keep growing every year.

From the testing and shooting I've done over the years I would rate the major ammo co's as follows.........

#1) CCI / Speer
#2) Federal
#3) Winchester
#4) Remington

I'd rate Buffalo Bore right up with CCI / Speer but again I view them as a Boutique Co. even though their products (at least the stuff I've tested) consistently comes out on top every time!
 
BaldEagle1313 said:
I'm in the crowd that thinks it's cost-cutting as much as liability.

No company is going to turn down a 5% reduction in costs if they think they can get away with it.
Click to expand...

I agree - it's about the bottom line. While I understand it's just business, I don't fancy the compromise they're making with my life. Furthermore, I believe the shift to lighter bullet weights is as much driven by cost reduction as anything else, esp. given the increases in metal prices in the last 10 years. A great many shooters have embraced the shift to lighter bullet weights, and now that's just about all I can find most places.

Mas Ayoob has written that Remington's FBI load has a softer lead alloy than Win or Fed. He used to be a big advocate for the loading - not sure what's in his J frame now . . .
 
bubbajoe45 said:
Mas Ayoob has written that Remington's FBI load has a softer lead alloy than Win or Fed. He used to be a big advocate for the loading - not sure what's in his J frame now . . .
Click to expand...

My money's on the Speer GDSB load. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not pleased with the big push towards light-for-caliber bullets with reduced sectional densities. Throw expansion into the mix, and you're lucky if they even get close to the 12" penetration mark. What made the FBI load a winner was a combination of penetration AND expansion (under most conditions).

Now, with all this news, my biggest concern is Remington went the way of Winchester and we now have an "FBI load" that can only be reasonably expected to expand from barrels of 3" or longer due to reduced velocity and possibly a harder alloyed bullet.

I guess I should just find a 3" 36-1 for sale somewhere and stop worrying...
 
CoMF said:
I guess I should just find a 3" 36-1 for sale somewhere and stop worrying...
Click to expand...

Couldn't hurt, but I'd still go with the Buffalo Bore rendition of the FBI load--either one. I'm carrying the standard pressure. Haven't been able to test it yet, but those who have seem to find it ballistically almost identical to the old, good Remington +P load, possibly a smidge hotter in some guns. I have a little Remington Express stuff, but won't be buying any of the new watered-down version.
 
shouldazagged said:
Couldn't hurt, but I'd still go with the Buffalo Bore rendition of the FBI load--either one.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the advice, but I think I'm going to pass. I have enough R38S12 to last into the foreseeable future, and for practice I have the option of Speer Lawman TMJ or good old-fashioned LRN. When that's all gone (and I'll rue the day when it does), I'll either embrace the new light-for-caliber wonder loads or just get a 3" Chief.
 
As per my notes, the new HTP loads contain 4.7gr powder. I had it noted as a flake powder that "looks like Unique." I realize that commercial ammo rarely uses canister powder, so take that for what it's worth-it was just my impression at the time I took it apart last September.
 
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