Remington FBI Load .38 Spl+p LHP real world Performance in Snub

Doug.38PR

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Messages
763
Reaction score
286
Location
Backwoods Louisiana
Above said load (158 gr) is what I have loaded in all my and my wife’s 38 Special 4 and 2 inch revolvers. I’ve used them for over 10 years now. Good expansion, penetration and reliable in sand tests and from what I have read online and in books over the past decade. A proven “manstopper”, for lack of a better word, abd a good reputation for around 50 years, more or less, in one form or another.

However, with all that being said, I have seen online tests that it does not expand well (but still penetrates good) when fired from a 2 inch barrel into gellatine with clothing fabric.

Be that as it may, gellatine is not human tissue, bone, blood, organs, etc. my question: how does it reportedly perform in actual shootings when fired from a 2 inch?
The reputation would seem to say a lot. Can anybody speak to this end?
 
Register to hide this ad
From chuckhawks.com handgun power chart. .38 Spec from a 2" barrel: fps ft lbs pen 1 shot stop Winchester +P 158gr.LHP 790 280 15.2" 67%
Federal, Rem, Win. 158gr.RNL 587 200 49%
Remington +P 158gr.LHP 776 211 65%
 
Last edited:
I don't have specific numbers but from what I've read it does well in real world shootings. I can't recall reading many stories about failures. It's real world performance has been compared to .45ACP hardball, but with less overpenetration and ricochet risk.

I carry Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P in my snub, but I would have no problem carrying some version of the FBI load, though my preference is for the standard pressure Buffalo Bore version (same velocity as the +P by other makers).
 
...well lets see...when I was with Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s that was the standard issue round...Remington, Federal or Winchester, just whoever had the contract. The standard issue gun was a S&W 64 4"...

Ones that I can remember...

One Sargent I worked for shot a murder suspect at about 10' inside a small motorhome with his issue Model 15 and the 158+P load...dropped the guy like a sack of flower... That is the only good story I have.

Friend who was in the Traffic Division happened to be close to an alarm call that came out and was first on scene. Got into a fight with the suspect who took his gun away from him and fired a round at him and missed... The officer pulled a Model 60 with the city issue ammo and shot at the guy hitting him in the neck. Guy dropped the officers gun and ran. Officer picked up his gun and continued to chase the suspect and got into another fight with him finally having to shoot him when the suspect again tried to take his gun. Was found that the .38 round from the 2" Model 60 had hit the guy in the neck and stuck there...

#1 guy in my academy class got into two shootings with the city issue gun and ammo. First was fighting a guy in a doorway where he had the guy jammed up but not totally under control. Suspect pulled a gun but my friend shot him in the face..bullet bounced off the guys cheek bone..."and he growled at me".

Second shooting was a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Friend had a rookie with him. They located the apartment and took cover on each side of the door before knocking...the door was partially open. Upon knocking a males voice asked who was there and they announced "pOlice..." To which the male said, "Come in".... They pushed the door open and there was a man with a gun at his side standing about 8-10' away. Guy was told to drop the gun at which time he started to raise it at the officers who each fired a round and stepped back. (both were using the city issue) Next voice to be heard is a woman from the rear of the apartment "Whats all that noise out there...?" Guys voice..."the pOlice done shot me...". The officers looked inside and saw the man still standing there the gun at his side. Guy then walks over to the couch, sits down and shortly thereafter dies... Friend bought a 6" 25-5 shortly thereafter...

I have several more stories received directly from the shooter. Of the 9 or 10 officers I spoke with only the above Sargent was happy with the outcome. Some shot people, some shot objects that should have been penetrated and were not but all of them switched guns and calibers...all of them. And I know three times as many people who have shot people with other guns and calibers and none of them switched guns after the shooting.

This round has killed a lot of people...but killing someone is not the object of a defensive encounter..immediately stopping them is.

Snubbies and other mouse guns are convenient but may not be effective...choose well....

Bob
 
Bullet technology has improved greatly since the 1970's and 80's. I think modern JHP loads are actually better than the old, soft lead hollow point loads. For a revolver with a barrel less than 4 inches in length, I'd definitely go with either standard pressure or +P ammo specifically designed for short barreled revolvers. The Speer Gold Dot 135 grain loads for 38 Special are good and consistent performers.
 
...well lets see...when I was with Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s that was the standard issue round...Remington, Federal or Winchester, just whoever had the contract. The standard issue gun was a S&W 64 4"...

Ones that I can remember...

One Sargent I worked for shot a murder suspect at about 10' inside a small motorhome with his issue Model 15 and the 158+P load...dropped the guy like a sack of flower... That is the only good story I have.

Friend who was in the Traffic Division happened to be close to an alarm call that came out and was first on scene. Got into a fight with the suspect who took his gun away from him and fired a round at him and missed... The officer pulled a Model 60 with the city issue ammo and shot at the guy hitting him in the neck. Guy dropped the officers gun and ran. Officer picked up his gun and continued to chase the suspect and got into another fight with him finally having to shoot him when the suspect again tried to take his gun. Was found that the .38 round from the 2" Model 60 had hit the guy in the neck and stuck there...

#1 guy in my academy class got into two shootings with the city issue gun and ammo. First was fighting a guy in a doorway where he had the guy jammed up but not totally under control. Suspect pulled a gun but my friend shot him in the face..bullet bounced off the guys cheek bone..."and he growled at me".

Second shooting was a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Friend had a rookie with him. They located the apartment and took cover on each side of the door before knocking...the door was partially open. Upon knocking a males voice asked who was there and they announced "pOlice..." To which the male said, "Come in".... They pushed the door open and there was a man with a gun at his side standing about 8-10' away. Guy was told to drop the gun at which time he started to raise it at the officers who each fired a round and stepped back. (both were using the city issue) Next voice to be heard is a woman from the rear of the apartment "Whats all that noise out there...?" Guys voice..."the pOlice done shot me...". The officers looked inside and saw the man still standing there the gun at his side. Guy then walks over to the couch, sits down and shortly thereafter dies... Friend bought a 6" 25-5 shortly thereafter...

I have several more stories received directly from the shooter. Of the 9 or 10 officers I spoke with only the above Sargent was happy with the outcome. Some shot people, some shot objects that should have been penetrated and were not but all of them switched guns and calibers...all of them. And I know three times as many people who have shot people with other guns and calibers and none of them switched guns after the shooting.

This round has killed a lot of people...but killing someone is not the object of a defensive encounter..immediately stopping them is.

Snubbies and other mouse guns are convenient but may not be effective...choose well....

Bob

The “police done shot me” story sounds almost like one a Houston Policeman told me years ago about him shooting a guy with a 1911 .45 ACP hollow points in which the rounds wentbright through the upper body, opened inside and went out the back tearing flesh hanging off the back of the personZ. Bad guy simply sat down on sofa with a “please don’t do that again” attitude
 
In the old days, shooting the Biggest bullet was the best load for man or beast.

Today there are some 38 Special 90, 110 and 125gr SD loads on the market
that some people think will work for them, for one reason or another.

Even though the NY police have adopted the Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP
there is still not a lot of shooting info being let out to the public
as far as how it performs, at least to my knowledge.

The 158 LHP "FBI load" has worked for over fifty years in the field,
so it has a pretty good track record to back up its use in the field.

I think a lot has to do with Summer vs Winter clothing as well as distance and angles.
There is also some LUCK involved is some of the shootings.....
 
...well lets see...when I was with Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s that was the standard issue round...Remington, Federal or Winchester, just whoever had the contract. The standard issue gun was a S&W 64 4"...

Ones that I can remember...

One Sargent I worked for shot a murder suspect at about 10' inside a small motorhome with his issue Model 15 and the 158+P load...dropped the guy like a sack of flower... That is the only good story I have.

Friend who was in the Traffic Division happened to be close to an alarm call that came out and was first on scene. Got into a fight with the suspect who took his gun away from him and fired a round at him and missed... The officer pulled a Model 60 with the city issue ammo and shot at the guy hitting him in the neck. Guy dropped the officers gun and ran. Officer picked up his gun and continued to chase the suspect and got into another fight with him finally having to shoot him when the suspect again tried to take his gun. Was found that the .38 round from the 2" Model 60 had hit the guy in the neck and stuck there...

#1 guy in my academy class got into two shootings with the city issue gun and ammo. First was fighting a guy in a doorway where he had the guy jammed up but not totally under control. Suspect pulled a gun but my friend shot him in the face..bullet bounced off the guys cheek bone..."and he growled at me".

Second shooting was a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Friend had a rookie with him. They located the apartment and took cover on each side of the door before knocking...the door was partially open. Upon knocking a males voice asked who was there and they announced "pOlice..." To which the male said, "Come in".... They pushed the door open and there was a man with a gun at his side standing about 8-10' away. Guy was told to drop the gun at which time he started to raise it at the officers who each fired a round and stepped back. (both were using the city issue) Next voice to be heard is a woman from the rear of the apartment "Whats all that noise out there...?" Guys voice..."the pOlice done shot me...". The officers looked inside and saw the man still standing there the gun at his side. Guy then walks over to the couch, sits down and shortly thereafter dies... Friend bought a 6" 25-5 shortly thereafter...

I have several more stories received directly from the shooter. Of the 9 or 10 officers I spoke with only the above Sargent was happy with the outcome. Some shot people, some shot objects that should have been penetrated and were not but all of them switched guns and calibers...all of them. And I know three times as many people who have shot people with other guns and calibers and none of them switched guns after the shooting.

This round has killed a lot of people...but killing someone is not the object of a defensive encounter..immediately stopping them is.

Snubbies and other mouse guns are convenient but may not be effective...choose well....

Bob

Do you know about a Dallas officer who supposedly shot and killed six felons, using his issued M-64 and that lead HP load?

Or about an officer who shot a fleeing felon four times in the back with a four-inch M-29 and full .44 Magnum rounds, all exiting his chest? The guy ran for a block or more before dropping.

When I talked to him, the officer was carrying a Model 19 with .357 ammo. He figured that the .44 was overkill on humans, and that 357 might fare better. I know his name, but probably shouldn't post it here.

The Dallas .357 load, also used by the FBI, was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. A Richardson, TX detective checked police shootings for me and said that ST .357 load was VERY effective.
 
Last edited:
In the old days, shooting the Biggest bullet was the best load for man or beast.

Today there are some 38 Special 90, 110 and 125gr SD loads on the market
that some people think will work for them, for one reason or another.

Even though the NY police have adopted the Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP
there is still not a lot of shooting info being let out to the public
as far as how it performs, at least to my knowledge.

The 158 LHP "FBI load" has worked for over fifty years in the field,
so it has a pretty good track record to back up its use in the field.

I think a lot has to do with Summer vs Winter clothing as well as distance and angles.
There is also some LUCK involved is some of the shootings.....

When I was a gun writer, I had access to Speer's PR man, who told me that both NYPD and LAPD used that 135 grain Short Barrel .38 load and that they were very pleased with results.

Granted, he was the manufacturer's man, but I believed him.
 
Ask Bobby Kennedy about the efficacy of a low-powered small bullet - 22 rimfire to be specific. While your'e at it, maybe James Brady, Timothy McCarthy, or Thomas Delahanty could give some info on the performance of 22LR as well.

All of those guys dropped like bags of spuds. Ronald Reagan was the only one tough enough to remain vertical - and that was due to a ricochet.

George Wallace, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Lennon dropped instantly after shots from 38 snubbies.

38 specials will do just fine.
 
Last edited:
It's important to specify what you define as the 158 gr 'FBI" load.

The FBI started using the X38SPD load in the mid 1970s. This was a .38 +P 158 gr LSWC-HP. Winchester still makes it and publishes a velocity of 890 fps in a 4" barrel.

Federal produced it's '38G load shortly after ward, and went through several iterations before they got it to work right, and it still didn't work right in revolvers that did not have a gas cylinder shield or ring as the lead and lube they used led to binding of the cylinder. Ruger incorporated a gas cylinder ring on law enforcement contract revolvers that were ordered in .38 Special. It required milling on the underside of the forcing cone for clearance and wasn't an option on the .357 Magnum as, like the Model 19, it made the forcing cone more prone to cracks with .357 Mag loads. In any event that load was discontinued in the late 1990s but seems to have resurfaced and Federal currently quotes 900 fps in a 4" barrel. I have no idea if they fixed there lead issues.

Remington also had the R38S12 load. I used this load for several years and it gave me around 825 fps in a 1 7/8" Model 36, about 860 fps in my 2 1/2" Model 66 and about 900 fps in my 3" Model 13. A few years go Remington "discontinued" it, which in Remington speak meant they renamed it as the RTP38S12 load in their "High Terminal Performance" series. The only change I noted was the price.

The Winchester and Remington loads perform well in ballistic gel tests in a 2" barrel, but there's no free lunch. Reliable expansion at 2" velocities requires a soft alloy which at +P pressures will start leaving significant lead fouling in the bore after 2-3 cylinders which starts impairing accuracy past that point.

----

The other day I stumbled on a 300 round box of Hornady 158 gr LSCW-HPs at a really good price and figured I'd work on an FBI'esque low recoil load for my K frame short barrel .357s, but one that would give 4" velocities in a 2.5" barrel.

5.0 gr of Unique (.2 gr over the limit for standard pressure .38) gave an average velocity of 778 fps in a 2.5" Model 66. 5.5 grains gave me 889.5 fps, and 6.0 grains gave me an average of 956 fps, all in a 2.5" barrel.

The disclaimer here is that these are .357 Magnum loads that are well under 158 gr lead bullet maximums in the old Hornady 3rd edition loading manual (the last one I have that has loads for Unique), but are all over the maximum for standard pressure .38 and I'm pretty sure the last two exceed .38 +P pressures.

The first load is I suspect very close to the modern .38 +P "FBI" load velocity based on my experience with the Remington load. The second does a good job of producing 4" "FBI load" velocities in a 2.5" barrel, but fouling was noticeable after 12 shots. Not hard to remove, but definitely there.

In the end though I decided to just stick with my current 125 gr XTP load that produces 1250 fps in a 2 1/2" barrel with excellent accuracy and no concerns for lead fouling.

I might however revisit it for my 2.125" and 3" Model 60s. The recoil was pleasant by .357 standards and it would I suspect be effective. I may try it in some ballistic gel if it stops raining.
 
Ask Bobby Kennedy about the efficacy of a low-powered small bullet - 22 rimfire to be specific. While your'e at it, maybe James Brady, Timothy McCarthy, or Thomas Delahanty could give some info on the performance of 22LR as well.

All of those guys dropped like bags of spuds. Ronald Reagan was the only one tough enough to remain vertical - and that was due to a ricochet.

George Wallace, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Lennon dropped instantly after shots from 38 snubbies.

38 specials will do just fine.

I think most of those (not sure about McCarthy) are all good arguments for:

- good bullet placement; and/or
- psychological stops.

None of these quys were crack heads (although Lennon liked Bennies).
 
It's important to specify what you define as the 158 gr 'FBI" load.

The FBI started using the X38SPD load in the mid 1970s. This was a .38 +P 158 gr LSWC-HP. Winchester still makes it and publishes a velocity of 890 fps in a 4" barrel.

Federal produced it's '38G load shortly after ward, and went through several iterations before they got it to work right, and it still didn't work right in revolvers that did not have a gas cylinder shield or ring as the lead and lube they used led to binding of the cylinder. Ruger incorporated a gas cylinder ring on law enforcement contract revolvers that were ordered in .38 Special. It required milling on the underside of the forcing cone for clearance and wasn't an option on the .357 Magnum as, like the Model 19, it made the forcing cone more prone to cracks with .357 Mag loads. In any event that load was discontinued in the late 1990s but seems to have resurfaced and Federal currently quotes 900 fps in a 4" barrel. I have no idea if they fixed there lead issues.

Remington also had the R38S12 load. I used this load for several years and it gave me around 825 fps in a 1 7/8" Model 36, about 860 fps in my 2 1/2" Model 66 and about 900 fps in my 3" Model 13. A few years go Remington "discontinued" it, which in Remington speak meant they renamed it as the RTP38S12 load in their "High Terminal Performance" series. The only change I noted was the price.

The Winchester and Remington loads perform well in ballistic gel tests in a 2" barrel, but there's no free lunch. Reliable expansion at 2" velocities requires a soft alloy which at +P pressures will start leaving significant lead fouling in the bore after 2-3 cylinders which starts impairing accuracy past that point.

----

The other day I stumbled on a 300 round box of Hornady 158 gr LSCW-HPs at a really good price and figured I'd work on an FBI'esque low recoil load for my K frame short barrel .357s, but one that would give 4" velocities in a 2.5" barrel.

5.0 gr of Unique (.2 gr over the limit for standard pressure .38) gave an average velocity of 778 fps in a 2.5" Model 66. 5.5 grains gave me 889.5 fps, and 6.0 grains gave me an average of 956 fps, all in a 2.5" barrel.

The disclaimer here is that these are .357 Magnum loads that are well under 158 gr lead bullet maximums in the old Hornady 3rd edition loading manual (the last one I have that has loads for Unique), but are all over the maximum for standard pressure .38 and I'm pretty sure the last two exceed .38 +P pressures.

The first load is I suspect very close to the modern .38 +P "FBI" load velocity based on my experience with the Remington load. The second does a good job of producing 4" "FBI load" velocities in a 2.5" barrel, but fouling was noticeable after 12 shots. Not hard to remove, but definitely there.

In the end though I decided to just stick with my current 125 gr XTP load that produces 1250 fps in a 2 1/2" barrel with excellent accuracy and no concerns for lead fouling.

I might however revisit it for my 2.125" and 3" Model 60s. The recoil was pleasant by .357 standards and it would I suspect be effective. I may try it in some ballistic gel if it stops raining.


The Remington version is the one I’ve been using for over 10 years now.

I have a box of Buffalo Bore+p of the same load but I reserve it for a backup load in my 4 inch guns. I get about 1185 ft per second out if a 4 inch. Has a pretty hard recoil, which I don’t mind for my Colt OP or SW M15 4 inch or even M10 2 inch being a K frame but I don’t want to load that in my Detective Special.

I too have 300 of Hornandy LHP 158 gr. Out of 4 inch, I get about 950 ft per second with 5.2 gr of Unique. About the same as Remington FBI Load. But I’m hesitant to use reloads for self defense. Plus Unique velocityperformance isn’t as good as factory ammo out of snub nose revolvers
 
Do you know about a Dallas officer who supposedly shot and killed six felons, using his issued M-64 and that lead HP load?

Or about an officer who shot a fleeing felon four times in the back with a four-inch M-29 and full .44 Magnum rounds, all exiting his chest? The guy ran for a block or more before dropping.

When I talked to him, the officer was carrying a Model 19 with .357 ammo. He figured that the .44 was overkill on humans, and that 357 might fare better. I know his name, but probably shouldn't post it here.

The Dallas .357 load, also used by the FBI, was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. A Richardson, TX detective checked police shootings for me and said that ST .357 load was VERY effective.

"supposedly"....Do you have a name???? All my accounts are first hand told to me by the shooter...

Yes, Tom was a good friend and my insurance agent...he told me all about the shooting. The guy was running and most of the rounds did NOT hit the torso.

There never was any "Dallas .357 load" as Dallas never issued guns or ammo in that caliber...don't know where you are getting your information but it isn't correct. And I 100% agree, the .357 ST is a VERY effective round...never said it was not. We are talking about the effectiveness of the FBI .38 Special load not .357s...

As to checking police reports and saying a round is effective without talking to the officer involved as to finding out EXACTLY what the shootee did when hit is useless.

Bob
 
Bad Bullets

When threads head in this direction, I'm reminded of two situations, both in New York. A NY Times delivery driver was mugged at the loading dock in Mid-town Manhattan, dropping stone dead from a single .25 Auto wound to the back. Conversely, Jim Cirilllo, of the NYPD stakeout squad wrote of a retail store robber taking two full loads of 12 gauge buckshot (18 pellets at the time) who remained on his feet and began to flee when brought down by an errant .38 Special round to the knee.

Michael Platt, the bad guy who did all the shooting at the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout, took a 9mm round through his arm and into his chest. AFTER suffering that wound, he went on to kill two FBI agents and wound five more.

The variables attendant in real-life shootings are simply too great to reduce to absolute predictability. It is better to think in terms of generalities: the bigger and faster the bullet, the more damage it does.I can hit you with a 16-pound bowling ball but I can't move it fast enough to cause serious damage to an adult. On the other hand, although rare, people have been killed by errant golf balls, even a hockey puck.
 
Last edited:
"supposedly"....Do you have a name???? All my accounts are first hand told to me by the shooter...

Yes, Tom was a good friend and my insurance agent...he told me all about the shooting. The guy was running and most of the rounds did NOT hit the torso.

There never was any "Dallas .357 load" as Dallas never issued guns or ammo in that caliber...don't know where you are getting your information but it isn't correct. And I 100% agree, the .357 ST is a VERY effective round...never said it was not. We are talking about the effectiveness of the FBI .38 Special load not .357s...



Bob

Not to get off topic, but am I to understand from this running guy story and your reply that the Dallas PD issued .44 Magnum rounds and .38 Spl+p but not .357 Magum rounds to officers?

Anyway, yes there is no guaranteed load that’s going to drop a man in an instant. I related a story of an HPD officer who hit a guy twice with .45 ACP hollow point ammo in the chest and they both expanded inside and ripped out the back with the bad guy simply sitting down on the sofa with a “please don’t do that again” attitude
 
I think most of those (not sure about McCarthy) are all good arguments for:

- good bullet placement; and/or
- psychological stops.

None of these quys were crack heads (although Lennon liked Bennies).

According to Ed Lovette in his book The Snubbie, the whole reason the FBI Load for Remington and Winchester was developed was due to the advent of thugs using drugs and the HP doing more internal damage to shut down the bad guy
 
DPD only issued .38 Special Model 64s (and before that Model 15s) and one kind of .38 158 +P LSWC HPs... Officers were free to purchase at their own expense any Colt, Browning or S&W in:

9mm
.38 Super
.357 Magnum
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.45 Colt
.45 Auto Rim
.45 ACP

Investigators could also carry .380 ACP.

You could carry any ammo, factory or HANDLOADS, as long as the bullet was not incendiary or explosive...again all ammo was at your own expense including qualification ammo...
 
In my 30 years (retired in ‘97) I survived three deadly force encounters while armed w/my department issued thirty-eight. In all but one instance it was the FBI +P lead round that did the job and and I carry it to this day in my EDC J frame.
 
Back
Top