.32 S&W Gel Test

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Duigiud

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It is what it was designed to be and not a 16 inch naval gun from the Battleship Missouri. The .32 s&w round, (not .32 s&w long), was created to be an up close, “across the poker table”, at arms length round to be fired from a equally dimuiative firearm. To be used as an extremely close range, “reach out and touch em”, personal use defense, handgun round and nothing more, period! I found a well researched article written in 2017 by Terril James Herbert in Guns.com entitled “Gun Review: Iver Johnson Safety Automatic Revolver in .32 S&W”. I would care less about the IJ but what I found interesting was for the first time I found someone who ACTUALLY had done ballistics gel testing with the .32 S&W round and had published the results on the net. With Remington factory ammo the 88 grain round nose bullet averaged 660 FPS from the 4 inch barrel IJ. He fired the rounds through 4 layers of denim before they entered the gel. The rounds penetrated between 14 to 18 inches into 10 % ordinance gel. Surprise, surprise! Well what about that folks! That will kill more than a Hamster now won’t it!

https://s14544.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/iv3.jpg

https://s14544.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/iv4.jpg
 
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I'm not familiar with most calibers and their effects, so these graphical examples are interesting to me. :)

I don't remember the ammo details about this photo comparison I borrowed from a previous forum thread. It has the .32 you mention in the upper left.

S_amp_W.jpg
 
Well I guess that shows me how misleading ballistics gel can be. A few stories about my early involvement with this caliber. My grandfather had a 32 H&R revolver that he carried when hunting and used it for rats and raccoons on the farm. I had the gun for years and recently gave it to one of my nephews to keep.

The first negative experience my grandfather had with the little 32 was while deer hunting. He shot a deer and as he approached, it appeared dead. As he got there, the deer was immobile but alive. He decided to use his 32 and shoot it through the brain. Well, the bullet bounced off the skull and whizzed past his ear. He never tried that again. He would also tell me about shooting raccoons in the barn and he was never able to kill them, but at least they ran away and never attacked.

That 32 H&R was the first revolver I ever shot. I was probably 10 years old and at the farm when my grandfather was picking up manure. He loaded up the mighty 32 and told me to shoot the rats as they ran from their warm home. Well 5 shots later and I could not hit a thing, so I found a piece of paper, drew a bullseye on it and tacked it to an oak tree. You guessed it . . . I shot from about 10 yards and the boomerang bullet bounced off the tree and hit me below the knee. Broke the skin, but bounced off me as well.

Bottom line, Never - Ever assume you have personal protection if you are carrying a 32 S&W. Chipmunks may even survive the shot and attack!:eek:
 
I don’t know about escaping barn rats, possum playing deer or hard-headed raccoons but when used at “arms length”, “across the poker table” or in the gut range like it was created for it worked. Just ask President McKinley.


P.S.

It’s not a naval gun! Wasn’t meant to be. Would you go squirrel hunting with a .30-06? When a moving object strikes an stationary one the kenetic energy has to go somewhere. If the moving object can’t penetrate the stationary one and hits it straight on then the kenetic energy is directed back from whence it came. Called a ricochet. Can happen to any caliber, a .32 s&w striking an Oak Tree or a .50 caliber BMG round hitting armored steel.
 
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Cal44 said:
Well, the 32 S&W and the 25 acp are examples of rounds that they often don't have the kinetic energy to penetrate bone (e.g., skull) and just bounce off. Or, follow the skull around just under the skin and then exit from behind. And leave the bad guy with a flesh wound and a headache.

The trouble with gel tests is there is nothing hard in the gel, so the 32 S&W and 25 acp penetrates OK, but in real life these low end rounds can't get past bones.

You are right, when shot in the belly, most people died back before antibiotics. But McKinley took nine days to die of gangrene. A very poor stopper in a self defense situation.

I think the move to the 32 S&W long just added enough power to break bones, at least most of the time, so they are a lot more effective.

Both 32 S&W Long and 32 acp were just powerful enough that they enjoyed a long run of use by law enforcement.
Click to expand...

I agree in part. If the .32 s&w was totally effective as a caliber that would incapacitate a bad guy then we wouldn’t have any of the other calibers now would we? Yes, President McKinley did take 9 days to die but that’s inmaterial to the matter at hand. Was he incapacitated when shot? Yes! No, he wasn’t capapulted backward through the air levitated off his feet to land 15 feet back from where he was standing like you see in Hollywood. Handguns are notoriously questionable as incapacatators. My 33 year, 4 months and 6 day Federal Law Enforcement career has taught me that. I was employed by U.S. Customs and later DHS as a Customs Patrol Officer then Special Agent before I retired. I was a Range Officer/Firearms Instructor my entire career. During my Firearms Training both basic and that of a Range Officer I was trained by the best from the Federal Law Enforcement Training Academy, (FLETC), to include Jim Cirillo retired NYPD. I had several Firearms Training classes and sessions on the range with him. Jim told us that the best way to immediately incapacitate, (kill), someone with a handgun is shoot them in the CNS or the brain. Civilians are not cops, they are not members of Jim’s NYPD stake-out squad. Civilians should be using a weapon on an assaiant to STOP an action that places them in imminent danger of their life or serious bodily harm. They don’t need something that vaporizes the bad guys like Capt. kirks Phaser. I’m not a cop anymore. I don’t get paid to go in harms way any more. The only way now that I’d use a firearm is at arms length to get the *** the hell off me! If I get shot the bullet holes are going to be in my *** because that’s the direction I’ll be heading! Call it in, wait for the paid cops not the retired ones to arrive, render all assistance and be a good witness and citizen.
 
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bigwheelzip said:
I'm not familiar with most calibers and their effects, so these graphical examples are interesting to me. :)

I don't remember the ammo details about this photo comparison I borrowed from a previous forum thread. It has the .32 you mention in the upper left.

S_amp_W.jpg
Click to expand...

Aren't 9mm Luger and 9mm Parabellum supposed to be the same thang.:rolleyes:
 
Ozark Marine said:
The .32 was good enough for Bad bad Leroy Brown, the baddest man in the whole dam town.
Click to expand...

All we're told is that Leroy had "...a .32 gun in his pocket just for fun...", so we don't know if it was a break-top .32 S&W, a .32 S&W Long Hand Ejector, or a .32 Auto. Unfortunately, Jim Croce died in 1973, so we'll never know. However, if the bullet bounced off of his victim, Leroy also "...had a razor in his shoe...". I doubt that he had a concealed carry permit.
 
Duigiud said:
I don’t know about escaping barn rats, possum playing deer or hard-headed raccoons but when used at “arms length”, “across the poker table” or in the gut range like it was created for it worked. Just ask President McKinley.


P.S.

It’s not a naval gun! Wasn’t meant to be. Would you go squirrel hunting with a .30-06? When a moving object strikes an stationary one the kenetic energy has to go somewhere. If the moving object can’t penetrate the stationary one and hits it straight on then the kenetic energy is directed back from whence it came. Called a ricochet. Can happen to any caliber, a .32 s&w striking an Oak Tree or a .50 caliber BMG round hitting armored steel.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for your condescending remarks.
 
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Read Chic Gaylord's, Handgunner's Guide (1960) for how the .32
performed in real life shootings in New York City.

It won't encourage you to rely on a .32 S&W.

I don't care what it did in this gel test. I want a caliber that'll more likely quickly deck an attacker.
 
jupiter1 said:
Paul Kersey (Charles Bronson) uses a .32 caliber nickel Colt Police Positive revolver with a 4-inch barrel as his weapon of choice. This revolver was given to him as a present by Ames Jainchill (Stuart Margolin) and is used throughout his vigilante encounters. He kills ten street muggers with it.

601px-Kersey_revolver2.jpg


Death Wish (1974 - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games)
Click to expand...

Ummm, yeah. You do realize that Paul Kersey is a fictional character, right? ;) :D JK!

And we all know what a great track record Hollyweird has with getting it right when it comes to guns...
 
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Texas Star said:
Read Chic Gaylord's, Handgunner's Guide (1960) for how the .32
performed in real life shootings in New York City.

It won't encourage you to rely on a .32 S&W.

I don't care what it did in this gel test. I want a caliber that'll more likely quickly deck an attacker.
Click to expand...

Anything bigger and traveling faster than a .32 S&W might incapacitate quicker or it might not. But why bother with a howitzer when something bigger might not increase the odds and as a civilian you shouldn’t be blasting away at anything more than an arms length any away. I said in a earlier part of this thread that I had Jim Cirillo as an Instructor in part of my Firearms Training at FLETC. Jim was part of a NYPD stake out team that went undercover inside of high crime businesses hiding inside to ambush the robbers. One time Jim and his team was in a shootout with one inside a store. The bad guy shot at the cops and the chase was on inside the store. Jim had a revolver and a 12 ga pump shotgun. They both rounded an aisle in the store and came face to face with each other. Jim shot the guy point blank in the chest with a slug. The perp got back up and ran towards the front door where he took another round and died. I had several cases I took to trial here in Tallahassee, FL. An AUSA I worked with allot, Dave McGee, told me one time when he was a State prosecutor in Tallahassee he handled a robbery where a huge guy tried to rob the place with a gun. However, the store owner had his own, an S&W model 29, .44 Mag, and shot the robber in the head with it. The idiot ran out of the store while the owner called the cops. Dave said that when the Tallahassee Police came they found the guy sitting down on the curb outside the store holding his head. A cop came up to him and the robber said, “Owee, my head hurts!”. They found out at the hospital that the round entered through the skin on his head and followed the curvature of his skull and didn’t penetrate. That’s two point blank shootings from large caliber weapons that should have done the Capt. Kirk vaporized thing immediately but didn’t. One did die but had enough time to do some damage to others if he wasn’t too busy trying to escape. The other was too busy holding his head. The point is neither caliber nor feet per second velocity will guarantee immediate incapacitation. It wasn’t too long ago that I read that FBI statistics showed that more people are murdered with .22’s and .25’s than any other calibers. Big is not always better.
 
Duigiud said:
Anything bigger and traveling faster than a .32 S&W might incapacitate quicker or it might not. But why bother with a howitzer when something bigger might not increase the odds and as a civilian you shouldn’t be blasting away at anything more than an arms length any away. I said in a earlier part of this thread that I had Jim Cirillo as an Instructor in part of my Firearms Training at FLETC. Jim was part of a NYPD stake out team that went undercover inside of high crime businesses hiding inside to ambush the robbers. One time Jim and his team was in a shootout with one inside a store. The bad guy shot at the cops and the chase was on inside the store. Jim had a revolver and a 12 ga pump shotgun. They both rounded an aisle in the store and came face to face with each other. Jim shot the guy point blank in the chest with a slug. The perp got back up and ran towards the front door where he took another round and died. I had several cases I took to trial here in Tallahassee, FL. An AUSA I worked with allot, Dave McGee, told me one time when he was a State prosecutor in Tallahassee he handled a robbery where a huge guy tried to rob the place with a gun. However, the store owner had his own, an S&W model 29, .44 Mag, and shot the robber in the head with it. The idiot ran out of the store while the owner called the cops. Dave said that when the Tallahassee Police came they found the guy sitting down on the curb outside the store holding his head. A cop came up to him and the robber said, “Owee, my head hurts!”. They found out at the hospital that the round entered through the skin on his head and followed the curvature of his skull and didn’t penetrate. That’s two point blank shootings from large caliber weapons that should have done the Capt. Kirk vaporized thing immediately but didn’t. One did die but had enough time to do some damage to others if he wasn’t too busy trying to escape. The other was too busy holding his head. The point is neither caliber nor feet per second velocity will guarantee immediate incapacitation. It wasn’t too long ago that I read that FBI statistics showed that more people are murdered with .22’s and .25’s than any other calibers. Big is not always better.
Click to expand...

P.S.

Forgot to mention that Jim’s handgun and ammo of choice was the .38 revolver with wad cutters. He said the best way to incapacitate, i.e. kill, a bad guy was to shoot them in the eye, (shot placement), there’s no hard headed skull to deflect a bullet behind an eyeball is there?
 
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Duigiud said:
P.S.

Forgot to mention that Jim’s handgun and ammo of choice was the .38 revolver with wad cutters. He said the best way to incapacitate, i.e. kill, a bad guy was to shoot them in the eye, (shot placement), there’s no hard headed skull to deflect a bullet behind an eyeball is there?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've always heard the quickest way to a one-shot stop is to hit the triangle formed by the eyes and mouth.

Unfortunately that is a pretty small moving target. So for me putting multiple rounds into center mass seems like the best bet, and using the biggest caliber you can reliably do that with makes the most sense.

More holes and bigger holes seems like a more realistic goal than trying to achieve a one-shot stop to me.
 
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