I’ve even heard it suggested (I think from SaxonPig among others) that +P is really not a hot load and in fact is actually more like what the original .38 Special standard was 50 years ago before ammo companies started downloading their ammo). I’ve heard similar comments regarding the .357 Magnum but I have no proof.

I invite you to follow this link, or if you prefer, go to YouTube and search for "Paul Harrell .38 Special."

Harrell does a great job of testing 38 special loads and uses a much more realistic testing medium - the "meat target," to ascertain how the bullets will perform from different barrels. For those intend to confine their shooting to large Jellyfish, gelatin testing is perfectly appropriate, but humans have very little "gel" inside them - same for bears.

While I certainly appreciate gel testing as a predictor of performance and a way to compare, it's not by any means meant to "show" terminal bullet performance on actual 200+ dangerous animals such as humans. It's currently fashionable to include a few layers of cloth over the gel, yet for some reason few seem interested in including a "rack of bones" a few inches inside, or better still, a multi-compound target made of up large bags of fresh chicken fat packed up to about 8-12" depth to "simulate" a large human (fat) abdomen, THEN a layer of home air filter material to "simulate" the greater omentum, with an assortment of "simulated organs" molded from a more dense gel. I think THAT would be a good way to find out just how wonderful all these high-expanding hollow-points might perform - oh and make sure there's a few layers of cloth over the front. This might sound foolish until I remind you of the South Carolina Trooper confronted with EXACTLY such a shooting situation! A large-bellied man with a generous layer of body fat. Despite having FIVE rounds of 357 magnum 125 grain HPs pumped into him at nearly point-blank range, he was still able to crawl along the ground and attempt a "finishing shot" on the Trooper! So he was "down" but still trying hard to continue the fight. Those bullet had to go through a lot of stomach fat which isn't at all like gelatin...it has no structure, just simply slumps into a viscous goo...very much like HUMAN fat. I'm sure it saps a lot of steam out of any bullet.

I like Paul Harrell's testing....he uses meat and ribs and organ simulation - and leather and fabric in an attempt to really find out what these various wonder-loads will do. It's interesting to compare his tests which are every bit as "standardized" as the gel tests on Lucky Gunner, to get a better picture of how any load MIGHT perform. He doesn't just SAY the 38 LSWC is a good load, he takes you through the process so YOU can decide if YOU believe the data presented.

If you doubt the standards for .38 Special have been downgraded
over the years, take a look at some older loading manuals.

Lots of older "starting loads" are beyond max loads, in newer
manuals.

Use of ammo in an unknown population of older & weaker
designed revolvers and popularity of liability lawsuits drive
that train.

Here is a Canadian RCMP test that includes pig ribs embedded in 10% gelatin.
and
Here is a study comparing actual penetration depths observed in police shootings to 10% gelatin.

10% gelatin was developed to provide the same forces against the penetrating bullet as swine muscle tissue and muscle tissue, not fat, is supposed to be the most difficult soft tissue to penetrate.

Lastly, muscles undergo degenerative changes after death -- "stiffs" is slang for corpses for good reason -- that make dead meat an invalid simulant for live tissue. In order to have a chance at being valid "meat" testing must use a live or freshly killed animal.

It's not only a matter of liability caution . In recent decades .38spl revolvers predominantly sold are heavily skewed to small frame snubs, frequently with lightweight alloy frames . There is consumer demand for "defensive ammo " that is more controllable / less painful to shoot .

I always enjoy Paul Harrell's videos.

Really sad about that South Carolina Trooper. Almost makes me inclined to load 158 or even 180 gr SJHP .357 Magnums instead of the proven 125 gr in case I run into some inbred fatass that stumbles out of the falling down meth trailerpark (of which there are many in this country) and tries to kill me. But anyway, that was awful hearing and seeing that policeman die like that. Almost as horrible as hearing that cop scream as this crazy piece trash with an M1 Carbine chased him down around his patrol car. What is Fat Bubba still doing alive and occupying good space and breathing valuable oxygen?

Just here to give a big thanks to BB57 for bringing actual facts, knowledge and information to the general darkness that is your average shooter's understanding of the FBI protocols; should be required reading for this subforum...

__________________
Pickpocket

No. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nobody is entitled to their own truth.

It doesn't matter what you "like", what is important is what works. Unfortunately, there is more smoke and mirrors with regards to ammunition performance than real hard data.

__________________
Only a cold warrior

I used the FBI +P HP in my 4” Model 15 at close range (arm’s length +) and three rounds dropped the suspect in his tracks.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I would think 3 rounds of SWC without the HP would do the same.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

In the 70´I used to fire this factory ammo in my fathers 2" Colt Detective Special as well as Super-Vel 110gr JHP they made the 21 oz gun a "powerhouse" very probably inthe +P+ range!!!
Best Wishes
Roberto Renauld

__________________
"Off we go..."

I also must say that in my opinion, considering todays factory loads, still the best defence load from factory in a .38 Special with a 4" barrel or longer, is the so called FBI load!!!!! at stated 890fps
for a 4" barrel.
Best Regards
Roberto Renauld

__________________
"Off we go..."

Just a little history to go with this old thread. As has been noted in a previous post, 4 layers of Denim was never an FBI standard. So where did it come from? It was promulgated by the now-defunct International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), and was chaired by Dr. Martin Fackler. Fackler was a military physician and was the chief proponent of gelatin testing. He was a big believer in deep penetration, and having come from a military setting, he didn't think there was any such thing as over-penetration, and completely discounted expansion.

At the time, many hollow point bullets expanded well in various media such as water jugs, wet newspaper, and even modeling clay, which were all used by amateur testers. But when those same bullets encountered some intermediate barrier, they often clogged and failed to expand in the real world. The 4 layers of denim test was specifically designed to make hollow points of the day fail to expand. The theory was that if a bullet got past the denim and still expanded, it was likely to work well in a variety of situations. This test has become the darling of backyard testers because it is easy to set up (sort of, using some old jeans), but it bears no relation to FBI tests that are used by government agencies or ammunition manufacturers.

The test is actually harder on a bullet than the real FBI Heavy Clothing Test, which is designed to simulate real world clothing. Quite a few rounds do well on FBI Heavy Clothing that don't look good through 4 layers of denim. Again, its original purpose was to make a hollow point fail. The old FBI load, especially from a 2-inch, is one such load.

As for the original FBI style LSWCHP +P, I've had occasion to see a couple dozen of them pulled out of human bodies on autopsy and from surgery fired from a mix of 2-inch and 4-inch guns used with the Winchester load by our city police department in the 70's and 80's. On a good torso hit, we'd usually find them under the skin of the back of the shot person, not classically expanded, but usually deformed and looking like a piece of parking lot gravel. It was about even money on whether the person would be dead or not, but the reputation among our cops was that if you could shoot well (and that was easy in a steel K-frame with this load), one or two hits were going to settle matters. I know that when we switched to the SIG P226 loaded with very early 147 grain 9mm loads, there was a feeling that the new gun held more shots, but didn't work as well. A move to the 124 +P Hydra Shok round fixed that right up.

I carried the city issued load in an Airweight J-frame off duty for a while when I was young and thought recoil was fun, and because we could get it for free. I never had any doubts that the load would do its job if I did mine. But I liked it a lot better in our issued Model 64's.

I don’t know about gel testing but do know when I had to use my revolver the FBI Load worked.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I have quite a few boxes of the old FBI load bought years ago at various gun shows. I use them exclusively for carry in my M&P (pre M10) ANF my Chief's Special. They are time and field tested and work very well.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437